Low birth rates

[ThePCWife]

I’ve been able to give useful, helpful advice to mothers IRL (mostly, yes, get another girl or woman to help you with money or by asking, depending on what their options were in terms of relatives and/or money). I delight in every tiny little statistic that shows more women are choosing more children in wedlock. I am delighted to attend a church bursting with babies and young marriage and SAHMs.

But it is not one-sided to admit there are difficulties. People are relieved IRL, not threatened or upset at the idea that there are difficulties. It makes them feel less alone and that they can figure something out. It cheers them, it doesn’t bring them despair.

Recently one young mother of her very first child was visibly relieved to hear that if a baby sleeps badly for more than a few weeks, that’s completely normal. Many women are told otherwise and that it’s their very own fault if the baby isn’t sleeping perfectly after a month or two.

That’s just one thing that stops a lot of women or makes them believe contraception for spacing is an answer (I have been able to steer people towards nfp, as well, and away from ABC). More kids is great, and I do what I can to help women with that, where I have useful information.

 

[Xantippe]

I’ve been able to give useful, helpful advice to mothers IRL (mostly, yes, get another girl or woman to help you with money or by asking, depending on what their options were in terms of relatives and/or money). I delight in every tiny little statistic that shows more women are choosing more children in wedlock. I am delighted to attend a church bursting with babies and young marriage and SAHMs.

But it is not one-sided to admit there are difficulties. People are relieved IRL, not threatened or upset at the idea that there are difficulties. It makes them feel less alone and that they can figure something out. It cheers them, it doesn’t bring them despair.

Recently one young mother of her very first child was visibly relieved to hear that if a baby sleeps badly for more than a few weeks, that’s completely normal. Many women are told otherwise and that it’s their very own fault if the baby isn’t sleeping perfectly after a month or two.

Yeah.

There’s a lot of mythology in the world of early parenting:

–There are trophies handed out for women who keep doing everything while pregnant that they do while not pregnant
–There are trophies handed out for not getting pain relief during labor (nope–no trophies)
–everybody can give birth vaginally
–everybody can breastfeed
–newborns always sleep a lot
–babies sleep through the night by X months
–your kids’ naps will coincide
–everybody else’s toddler is potty-trained by 3
–everybody else’s child eats a balanced diet
–nobody else’s child makes noise in church
–my kids never did THAT (whatever your kid just did)

 

[bitterhope]

Yeah.

There’s a lot of mythology in the world of early parenting:

–There are trophies handed out for women who keep doing everything while pregnant that they do while not pregnant
–There are trophies handed out for not getting pain relief during labor (nope–no trophies)
–everybody can give birth vaginally
–everybody can breastfeed
–newborns always sleep a lot
–babies sleep through the night by X months
–your kids’ naps will coincide
–everybody else’s toddler is potty-trained by 3
–everybody else’s child eats a balanced diet
–nobody else’s child makes noise in church
–my kids never did THAT (whatever your kid just did)

I see this list, or similar lists, repeated here on a regular basis. I don’t understand where this comes from though. I have never heard anyone claim any of the things stated, people I know realize babies are human individuals with seperate personalities even in the womb, Mass is full of crying/active little ones for all to view, 3 is the average age for potty training in the US according to most pediatricians, I know no one in real life whose child sleeps through the night the way an adult does before at least year old most older than that (though Drs consider sleeping through the night in a different way than most of us do), most moms aren’t breastfeeding or at least supplement, csections are VERY common!!!, some newborns are very sleepy but mine are normally wide awake (goes back to being individuals), there have never been trophies handed out for anything in life, not just parenthood. In real life instead of online, the “problems” of parenthood tend to be compounded while the joys are dismissed. Seems to me online this is the case as well…

People need to move past the seeking of earthly rewards for living normal, everyday life. It’s very hard not to see sour grapes in lists like these. Yes, at times life (and motherhood) sucks. Sometimes things are tough. Some things don’t seem worth it by earthly standards. It’s time to acknowledge though that we live in a world and at a time where absolutely no one is forced to have children. Many people opt to forgo the process all together. Most people are encouraged to forgo it at least temporarily or limit it if nothing else. People that want to make large families work find the way to make them work while others decide it’s not for them. That’s not a judgment, that’s a fact. Sacrifices are made to make life happen. People sacrifice for their careers. People sacrifice for vocations. People sacrifice for education or marriage or to remain single. Some people sacrifice having more children than they want in order to live in a way they feel comfortable. Others sacrifice in order to have more children.

There are enough large families that make things work in every corner of every society that obviously it is possible to make this work. Not a single poster has stated that everyone MUST make this work, just that yes, it can and does work for many of us. Not everyone has the luxury of hiring help, paying for services, living near family, being surrounded by people who can or are willing to offer assistance. Actually most of the people I’ve met throughout life have not had any of those things. Yes, it’s hard at times but there are ways to make it work. If someone is able to have family or pay for service ok, but what about those that can’t? Shouldn’t people who have made it work without those things state how they’ve done it? Problem is, when we do, many individuals on CAF get offended. They take things as personal assaults. They latch on to one thing and change it into something different. They discredit posters and discount what they say. I’m just very glad in real life people tend to not act the ways in which people online do.

I take new moms on commissary trips. They want to learn to feed their families healthy foods at an affordable price. We share recipes. They appreciate someone taking the time to mentor them in that way. I also help new immigrant families in my husband’s unit learn English and find their way around. Most of these women don’t drive at first, they speak very little or no English, they haven’t been to American grocery stores, they have no family. Not a single one has ever been anything other than thankful for the beauty of life here in the US, the opportunities they never thought possible for them or their kids. They aren’t disappointed that husband is gone working so much because they know life is about sacrifices. We pick and choose what we are willing to accept. All of these women see their children as a true and happy blessings and feel so happy to be able to have and provide for them. They work hard, learn enough English to manage on their own, learn to drive, and seek out independence as soon as possible. They don’t sit around wallowing in self pity or complaining that more services aren’t available or upset that life is hard or any of those things. They don’t suffer from sour grapes. They make lemons into lemonade instead.

 

[john_ennis]

Children are hard work. They are challenging and force you to think beyond yourself. I don’t see why we have to sugarcoat the truth.

That much is true.

However having children does not automatically cure selfishness. Selfish people become selfish parents.

I would rather that people have no kids than have kids and not bother to take care of them properly.

Sending high-schoolers home with mechanical babies isn’t a lesson in the non-sugar-coated truth about parenting. In fact, it’s artificial, incomplete, and a very effective means of getting teens to view child-raising in selfish way.

Instead, the perspective that this is a human with all of the value that the parent herself has, and with a desperate need to be loved and cared for, ought to be emphasized.

And THAT can be the link to the lesson that having kids is serious, and ought to be done only with an attitude of commitment and readiness…for the sake of the kid–not because it will wreck your life.

It’s important to add that the effect of being a parent on self-centeredness is typically profound. Your phrasing “automatically cure selfishness” is worded to answer itself, but nobody suggested such a thing. The truth which should be told to teens is that, in fact, parenting can make you a better person. But that’s not why you do it. That would be selfish.

But selfishness is exactly what we cater to when we show the kids that, when it comes to having babies, the primary–and pratically the only–consideration is that they are annoying. We don’t want uncaring parents? Then don’t teach them during their adolescence to see only the how-does-it-hurt-me part of parenting.
Bottom line–the effort to teach kids the right attitude about having babies ought to appeal to their highest attitudes, not their selfishness.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Sending high-schoolers home with mechanical babies isn’t a lesson in the non-sugar-coated truth about parenting. In fact, it’s artificial, incomplete, and a very effective means of getting teens to view child-raising in selfish way.

Instead, the perspective that this is a human with all of the value that the parent herself has, and with a desperate need to be loved and cared for, ought to be emphasized.

And THAT can be the link to the lesson that having kids is serious, and ought to be done only with an attitude of commitment and readiness…for the sake of the kid–not because it will wreck your life.

It’s important to add that the effect of being a parent on self-centeredness is typically profound. Your phrasing “automatically cure selfishness” is worded to answer itself, but nobody suggested such a thing. The truth which should be told to teens is that, in fact, parenting can make you a better person. But that’s not why you do it. That would be selfish.

But selfishness is exactly what we cater to when we show the kids that, when it comes to having babies, the primary–and pratically the only–consideration is that they are annoying. We don’t want uncaring parents? Then don’t teach them during their adolescence to see only the how-does-it-hurt-me part of parenting.
Bottom line–the effort to teach kids the right attitude about having babies ought to appeal to their highest attitudes, not their selfishness.

Yes

2371 "Let all be convinced that human life and the duty of transmitting it are not limited by the horizons of this life only: their true evaluation and full significance can be understood only in reference to man’s eternal destiny."160

There are enough large families that make things work in every corner of every society that obviously it is possible to make this work. Not a single poster has stated that everyone MUST make this work, just that yes, it can and does work for many of us.

Yes! This shouldn’t be taken as an accusation that anyone should be having more kids, but an encouragement that yes, be not afraid, welcoming more children can be done in ordinary families with less than perfect circumstances.

 

[Usige]

As for your other point, about people taking these messages too seriously even when well established and married, how about a mentorship program in church for newlyweds or even for singles who are discerning marriage? Since you have a large happy family, who could be a better witness and mentor than you?

We have been involved in pre-canna and NFP instruction for about 5 years. We have also talked about forming a deanery level “pre-marriage” and early marriage program to expand the horizons of family ministry. Right now those plans are on hold as we are not to start any new initiatives while in formation (I am a candidate for the permanent diaconate). What I would like to do over the next 4 years in to work with our college/early adult minister to see where there are gaps in the years between college and parenthood so we can develop ministries to help support people so they don’t feel like they are left to just figure it out. The goal would not be “how can you raise 20 kids”, but to help them make informed decisions that are not purely based on secular views of parenthood as a burden.

The biggest challenge is that many people at that age have abandoned the faith or are not terribly interested in learning how to integrate the faith into their marriage. The challenge would not be so much in sharing information, but getting them in the door in the first place. We have enough trouble getting them to attend pre-cana classes and they only do that because it is required. I am trying to find other successful programs that present it as a resource to model after.

 

[Sarcelle]

Sending high-schoolers home with mechanical babies isn’t a lesson in the non-sugar-coated truth about parenting. In fact, it’s artificial, incomplete, and a very effective means of getting teens to view child-raising in selfish way.

Instead, the perspective that this is a human with all of the value that the parent herself has, and with a desperate need to be loved and cared for, ought to be emphasized.

And THAT can be the link to the lesson that having kids is serious, and ought to be done only with an attitude of commitment and readiness…for the sake of the kid–not because it will wreck your life.

It’s important to add that the effect of being a parent on self-centeredness is typically profound. Your phrasing “automatically cure selfishness” is worded to answer itself, but nobody suggested such a thing. The truth which should be told to teens is that, in fact, parenting can make you a better person. But that’s not why you do it. That would be selfish.

But selfishness is exactly what we cater to when we show the kids that, when it comes to having babies, the primary–and pratically the only–consideration is that they are annoying. We don’t want uncaring parents? Then don’t teach them during their adolescence to see only the how-does-it-hurt-me part of parenting.
Bottom line–the effort to teach kids the right attitude about having babies ought to appeal to their highest attitudes, not their selfishness.

You should read my other post. Post #125 to be specific.

In it, I suggest that older, experienced couples, especially those who are raising a large number of children, can be an invaluable witness to the teaching that children are God’s blessings. It does not appeal to fear or selfishness. Newlyweds and singles discerning marriage can see that having a larger number of children, while challenging, isn’t something to fear.

Bitterhope is already doing that and her witness and mentorship is invaluable to others.

The fact that God wants more children speaks that God likes people more than people like people. No such thing as the Human Extinction Movement in God’s mind. This is encouraging.

 

[bitterhope]

You should read my other post. Post #125 to be specific.

In it, I suggest that older, experienced couples, especially those who are raising a large number of children, can be an invaluable witness to the teaching that children are God’s blessings. It does not appeal to fear or selfishness. Newlyweds and singles discerning marriage can see that having a larger number of children, while challenging, isn’t something to fear.

Bitterhope is already doing that and her witness and mentorship is invaluable to others.

The fact that God wants more children speaks that God likes people more than people like people. No such thing as the Human Extinction Movement in God’s mind. This is encouraging.

Thank you Sarcelle. Knowing at least one person understands what I try to express means an awful lot to me. I often feel as if everyone truly believes I’m heartless and seek for others to suffer. It’s so far from the truth but I acknowledge I’m not the best at expressing myself, especially through writing. Thank you

 

[Chayla]

…I often feel as if everyone truly believes I’m heartless and seek for others to suffer. It’s so far from the truth but I acknowledge I’m not the best at expressing myself, especially through writing. Thank you

You express yourself eloquently, & say it “like it is.” Thank you.

 

[ThePCWife]

Thank you Sarcelle. Knowing at least one person understands what I try to express means an awful lot to me. I often feel as if everyone truly believes I’m heartless and seek for others to suffer. It’s so far from the truth but I acknowledge I’m not the best at expressing myself, especially through writing. Thank you

Some of us consider children a joyful burden. An echo of the yoke we carry in Christ.

Interesting that you dismiss what others need, what you yourself mention providing as a luxury, though.

My life was on a path much like a poster with severe health challenges (not going to out her) before I had kids. Lots of female health and chronic pain issues, doctors said biological children were a physical impossibility. Miraculously I’ve been blessed with more children than I ever dreamed I’d be able to see alive. Life is pretty nice.

People usually come to talk about a problem in hopes of getting a solution. There’s not a lot of forum traffic in “things are always fine, thanks!” So there’s a distorted sense of things if one assumes stating problems or difficulties means people are full of miser after the comment is posted.

I do think telling people to do what generic-you did 20 years ago when it’s not possible to do today is sub-optimal in the project of helping young couples embrace the blessings that might accrue in the marriage bed.

But we’re all just humans banging around this big beautiful planet God put us on, in the end. So misunderstandings will always arise.

I spend a lot of time studying demographics and fertility trends. It came out of my experiences, my personal individual experiences. I wanted to know if what I was seeing and hearing and experiencing was unusual or not. It turned out my experiences and those of the mothers I was around were the more typical situation. On the internet, of course, it’s very different. There, people’s experiences are mysteriously unlike those of any large families offline. Funny how that works.

Anyway I’ve taken much of this discussion seriously, and it’s helped open my eyes to understanding things I perhaps didn’t before. So it’s been profitable, at least.

 

[Xantippe]

I see this list, or similar lists, repeated here on a regular basis. I don’t understand where this comes from though. I have never heard anyone claim any of the things stated, people I know realize babies are human individuals with seperate personalities even in the womb, Mass is full of crying/active little ones for all to view, 3 is the average age for potty training in the US according to most pediatricians, I know no one in real life whose child sleeps through the night the way an adult does before at least year old most older than that (though Drs consider sleeping through the night in a different way than most of us do), most moms aren’t breastfeeding or at least supplement, csections are VERY common!!!, some newborns are very sleepy but mine are normally wide awake (goes back to being individuals), there have never been trophies handed out for anything in life, not just parenthood. In real life instead of online, the “problems” of parenthood tend to be compounded while the joys are dismissed. Seems to me online this is the case as well…

People need to move past the seeking of earthly rewards for living normal, everyday life. It’s very hard not to see sour grapes in lists like these. Yes, at times life (and motherhood) sucks. Sometimes things are tough. Some things don’t seem worth it by earthly standards. It’s time to acknowledge though that we live in a world and at a time where absolutely no one is forced to have children. Many people opt to forgo the process all together. Most people are encouraged to forgo it at least temporarily or limit it if nothing else. People that want to make large families work find the way to make them work while others decide it’s not for them. That’s not a judgment, that’s a fact. Sacrifices are made to make life happen. People sacrifice for their careers. People sacrifice for vocations. People sacrifice for education or marriage or to remain single. Some people sacrifice having more children than they want in order to live in a way they feel comfortable. Others sacrifice in order to have more children.

There are enough large families that make things work in every corner of every society that obviously it is possible to make this work. Not a single poster has stated that everyone MUST make this work, just that yes, it can and does work for many of us. Not everyone has the luxury of hiring help, paying for services, living near family, being surrounded by people who can or are willing to offer assistance. Actually most of the people I’ve met throughout life have not had any of those things. Yes, it’s hard at times but there are ways to make it work. If someone is able to have family or pay for service ok, but what about those that can’t? Shouldn’t people who have made it work without those things state how they’ve done it? Problem is, when we do, many individuals on CAF get offended. They take things as personal assaults. They latch on to one thing and change it into something different. They discredit posters and discount what they say. I’m just very glad in real life people tend to not act the ways in which people online do.

What I’m getting at in my list is that early parenthood in the US is a time when women are vulnerable to a lot of semi-truths and straight out lies because it’s new to us and we don’t know any better. I can think of at least one CAFer who was devastated by having had a c-section.

Most American women are from smaller families and/or haven’t had a lot of experience with small children, so we often don’t have a lot of confidence or experience with dealing with babies and toddlers. I’m an oldest sister, but I was too small to take in much of what my mom was doing with my younger sister, and while I did eventually spend quality time with my baby brother (born when I was almost 9), I didn’t really register what my mom was doing with him when he was little–and if he was particularly annoying (for example running around naked), I’d just shut and lock my door and not deal with him. I changed maybe one diaper as a kid–maybe two. I had to learn virtually everything I know about children when I finally had one of my own in my late 20s–which is not unusual these days.

I find that things are a bit different with my kids (although the spacing is very similar to my family of origin). I find myself being much more explicit with the big kids about developmental stages, childcare tricks, and other topics that come up–treating it as an academic subject more or less. The big kids are very fond of Baby Girl and have been a lot of help, but they’ve had to put up with a lot from her the last year or so. I’ve also put Big Sister on the potty training crew, and it’s gone very well so far. I keep promising them that next year will be easier…

 

[bitterhope]

Some of us consider children a joyful burden. An echo of the yoke we carry in Christ.

Interesting that you dismiss what others need, what you yourself mention providing as a luxury, though.

My life was on a path much like a poster with severe health challenges (not going to out her) before I had kids. Lots of female health and chronic pain issues, doctors said biological children were a physical impossibility. Miraculously I’ve been blessed with more children than I ever dreamed I’d be able to see alive. Life is pretty nice.

People usually come to talk about a problem in hopes of getting a solution. There’s not a lot of forum traffic in “things are always fine, thanks!” So there’s a distorted sense of things if one assumes stating problems or difficulties means people are full of miser after the comment is posted.

I do think telling people to do what generic-you did 20 years ago when it’s not possible to do today is sub-optimal in the project of helping young couples embrace the blessings that might accrue in the marriage bed.

But we’re all just humans banging around this big beautiful planet God put us on, in the end. So misunderstandings will always arise.

I spend a lot of time studying demographics and fertility trends. It came out of my experiences, my personal individual experiences. I wanted to know if what I was seeing and hearing and experiencing was unusual or not. It turned out my experiences and those of the mothers I was around were the more typical situation. On the internet, of course, it’s very different. There, people’s experiences are mysteriously unlike those of any large families offline. Funny how that works.

Anyway I’ve taken much of this discussion seriously, and it’s helped open my eyes to understanding things I perhaps didn’t before. So it’s been profitable, at least.

Haven’t dismissed anyone’s needs, just don’t see how it’s sustainable to have hired help for most Americans, or most people world wide either. Most people don’t have the income, so suggesting that as basically the only form of advice given to moms has a way of creating feelings of hopelessness that life simply can’t ever get better. Nothing I provide to anyone is a luxury. It is simply being a Christian and stepping in to help out short term until they are able to do it themselves. These ladies quickly learn to drive, learn enough English to manage independently, and find meals to fix without going broke.

Maybe since you state your husband makes six figures you are surrounded by other high earning families. That is a very small number of people world wide. I’ve never met anyone in real life that has hired help, aside from occasional babysitters or full time childcare if both parents work. The vast majority of Americans can not afford something like that.

What I have found is people receive great satisfaction from managing things on their own. Having a constant stream of third parties in and out is stressful. Most people prefer doing things their own way in their own time. That’s why stepping stones versus long term hand holding tend to be sought out and appreciated.

Since you are able financially to sustain long term help, go for it. It would be nice for it to be acknowledged that most people simply will never be able to make that happen. People that can’t afford to pay for services deserve to be shown how to do things themselves. They deserve to hear that it is possible to have a happy life. There are ways to make life work even with limited means.

 

[Xantippe]

Haven’t dismissed anyone’s needs,** just don’t see how it’s sustainable to have hired help for most Americans,** or most people world wide either. Most people don’t have the income, so suggesting that as basically the only form of advice given to moms has a way of creating feelings of hopelessness that life simply can’t ever get better. Nothing I provide to anyone is a luxury. It is simply being a Christian and stepping in to help out short term until they are able to do it themselves. These ladies quickly learn to drive, learn enough English to manage independently, and find meals to fix without going broke.

Maybe since you state your husband makes six figures you are surrounded by other high earning families. That is a very small number of people world wide. I’ve never met anyone in real life that has hired help, aside from occasional babysitters or full time childcare if both parents work. The vast majority of Americans can not afford something like that.

What I have found is people receive great satisfaction from managing things on their own. Having a constant stream of third parties in and out is stressful. Most people prefer doing things their own way in their own time. That’s why stepping stones versus long term hand holding tend to be sought out and appreciated.

Since you are able financially to sustain long term help, go for it. It would be nice for it to be acknowledged that most people simply will never be able to make that happen. People that can’t afford to pay for services deserve to be shown how to do things themselves. They deserve to hear that it is possible to have a happy life. There are ways to make life work even with limited means.

1. A pizza or fast food costs money, and yet it seems to be “sustainable” for a whole lot of Americans to do that. Likewise, I see a lot of $40k trucks on the road. (Of course, it is a fair point that a lot of people who do that cannot actually afford those things.)
2. At the low end of the scale, there’s child help. For example, my oldest has for years now been occasionally mother’s helpering for a friend with a disabled child. She goes over and works for an hour/hour and a half for $5 an hour. My friend has been able to knock out some tricky household projects that way (like painting) and my daughter is very good with the disabled kid. The last time my daughter helped, friend had my daughter hanging pictures for her after a move. (Daughter is saving for her senior trip in four years and she will eventually graduate to the full dignity of solo evening babysitting.)

People who aren’t dirt poor can afford that level of expense from time to time as a “stepping stone” (fore example, when there’s a new baby). Also, when figuring out family size stuff, it’s reasonable to budget in the cost of a little help–as ThePCWife says elsewhere, household help is biblical! Just about all of the heroines in the Bible (except probably the occasional poor widow) had servants–Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Abigail, the Proverbs 31 woman, etc.

1. ThePCWife mentioned both suggesting paid help or more unpaid help, depending on the family’s means.

A lot of Americans (even very well-off Americans) have this ideal in their heads that mom has to do EVERYTHING by herself at home (at least until kids can help), and it’s not really either scriptural or practical. For example, I have a friend whose husband makes at least $120k, and he won’t let her get a $50 a visit housecleaner. He’s got the mom-does-everything bug real bad.

1. “What I have found is people receive great satisfaction from managing things on their own.” Not me! I get a lot of satisfaction from a visit by cleaners (my house is all clean at the same time!), my kids cleaning their own rooms, my husband making dinner, the big kids helping with Baby Girl, Baby Girl going to parents’ day out, the kids going to camps and learning stuff, some guys coming to mow and blow in 30 minutes so my husband doesn’t have to sweat over it all Saturday, etc. In earlier days (before the big kids were big and helpful), it was very nice to have a sitter come so I could take a nap while sleepy and pregnant (we lived on a college campus then, so I knew a lot of smart, energetic, responsible young people who were good at origami).

It’s possible to survive without as much help, but I find that our family gets more done with more help–for example, having lawn help frees my husband up to do more maintenance work indoors that would be expensive hired out. And, obviously, my friend gets more done and with less stress when she has my daughter to help her out.

 

[pensmama87]

I have found, not having much money, that it has done me loads of good to reach out for support in the community, and then to be that support for other people. Things like making meals for new moms, offering to watch kids so mom can go to the doctor, babysitting swaps so a couple can have a date night, things like that mean so much to people who are struggling, and with how much people move and how isolated everybody is these days, they don’t necessarily have family to reach out to close by.

My mom got a little judgy with me when I talked about how relieved I was to have cooking help my first few weeks (and that I had found it necessary to build up a freezer meal supply). She said “Well, I never needed that,” but she conveniently left out that my grandma typically came for several weeks around baby time and handled all of the housework and other-kid-wrangling. We’re also just different people. I’ll admit to having Martha tendencies and getting very distracted by Needing to Do All of the Things, so anything that eases my mind on that front is a super big plus.

It’s a blessed thing to be so resilient and have the skills, but I think we do a world of good when we assist people to get there. When I was a teacher we called that “scaffolding.” Have the high expectation, show that it’s possible, and then build the necessary steps to get there, because the leap is hard. I’m much more confident, competent, and independent with three kids than I was with one. As I said earlier, I help with the baptism prep at our parish now, and part of what my husband and I do together is teach new parents how to begin practicing the faith as a family because so many don’t know how to practice other than coming to Mass (if that!) We show and teach what we do, and then make ourselves available to assist and mentor after the class sessions are over.

 

[Xantippe]

I have found, not having much money, that it has done me loads of good to reach out for support in the community, and then to be that support for other people. Things like making meals for new moms, offering to watch kids so mom can go to the doctor, babysitting swaps so a couple can have a date night, things like that mean so much to people who are struggling, and with how much people move and how isolated everybody is these days, they don’t necessarily have family to reach out to close by.

My mom got a little judgy with me when I talked about how relieved I was to have cooking help my first few weeks (and that I had found it necessary to build up a freezer meal supply). She said “Well, I never needed that,” but she conveniently left out that my grandma typically came for several weeks around baby time and handled all of the housework and other-kid-wrangling. We’re also just different people. I’ll admit to having Martha tendencies and getting very distracted by Needing to Do All of the Things, so anything that eases my mind on that front is a super big plus.

It’s a blessed thing to be so resilient and have the skills, but I think we do a world of good when we assist people to get there. When I was a teacher we called that “scaffolding.” Have the high expectation, show that it’s possible, and then build the necessary steps to get there, because the leap is hard. I’m much more confident, competent, and independent with three kids than I was with one. As I said earlier, I help with the baptism prep at our parish now, and part of what my husband and I do together is teach new parents how to begin practicing the faith as a family because so many don’t know how to practice other than coming to Mass (if that!) We show and teach what we do, and then make ourselves available to assist and mentor after the class sessions are over.

Very nice!

Love the grandma story!

We have one judgy grandpa in the family. I’ve quoted him a couple times on CAF for saying, “Lots of women have five children and do JUST FINE” when I was visiting them with two little kids and having to do just about everything by myself in a strange house without my usual stuff and no baby-proofing and having a hard time.

Years later, things clicked and I realized–hey, wait a minute! Grandpa had only TWO children. And they were 10 years apart. And both grandmas helped a lot! (One grandma even came out from the old country for a year or two to help with the youngest.) It was a real Sixth Sense moment, where I realized that grandpa had never done the stuff he expected me to do, and he was “forgetting” big chunks of his own life.

People sometimes forget how much help they got.

 

[Xantippe]

I think there are definitely going to be “high need” times when an individual family cannot realistically manage without some sort of outside help or when outside help would be especially welcome.

For example, my mom had cancer when I was 15–for much of that year, she was mostly either in bed or shuttling back and forth for chemotherapy in the closest biggish town (with an overnight stay with family, as she couldn’t drive herself back right away). Initially, there were a number of casseroles from people at church, and that got us going. I did the cooking myself for the rest of that time from whatever happened to be in the fridge (there were some doozies!), but I really appreciated the church casseroles.

My youngest sibling was 6/7 at the time–he was left to his own devices for much of a year. Had this happened to a family with smaller children, there would have been a need for a lot more outside help for childcare, as I was in school and beyond that, I was fully occupied in the evening with just doing my school work, cooking dinner, doing the family laundry, and washing dishes (when I couldn’t dragoon my younger sister into doing them).

 

[AClaire11]

1. A pizza or fast food costs money, and yet it seems to be “sustainable” for a whole lot of Americans to do that. Likewise, I see a lot of $40k trucks on the road. (Of course, it is a fair point that a lot of people who do that cannot actually afford those things.)
2. At the low end of the scale, there’s child help. For example, my oldest has for years now been occasionally mother’s helpering for a friend with a disabled child. She goes over and works for an hour/hour and a half for $5 an hour. My friend has been able to knock out some tricky household projects that way (like painting) and my daughter is very good with the disabled kid. The last time my daughter helped, friend had my daughter hanging pictures for her after a move. (Daughter is saving for her senior trip in four years and she will eventually graduate to the full dignity of solo evening babysitting.)

People who aren’t dirt poor can afford that level of expense from time to time as a “stepping stone” (fore example, when there’s a new baby). Also, when figuring out family size stuff, it’s reasonable to budget in the cost of a little help–as ThePCWife says elsewhere, household help is biblical! Just about all of the heroines in the Bible (except probably the occasional poor widow) had servants–Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Abigail, the Proverbs 31 woman, etc.

1. ThePCWife mentioned both suggesting paid help or more unpaid help, depending on the family’s means.

A lot of Americans (even very well-off Americans) have this ideal in their heads that mom has to do EVERYTHING by herself at home (at least until kids can help), and it’s not really either scriptural or practical. For example, I have a friend whose husband makes at least $120k, and he won’t let her get a $50 a visit housecleaner. He’s got the mom-does-everything bug real bad.

1. “What I have found is people receive great satisfaction from managing things on their own.” Not me! I get a lot of satisfaction from a visit by cleaners (my house is all clean at the same time!), my kids cleaning their own rooms, my husband making dinner, the big kids helping with Baby Girl, Baby Girl going to parents’ day out, the kids going to camps and learning stuff, some guys coming to mow and blow in 30 minutes so my husband doesn’t have to sweat over it all Saturday, etc. In earlier days (before the big kids were big and helpful), it was very nice to have a sitter come so I could take a nap while sleepy and pregnant (we lived on a college campus then, so I knew a lot of smart, energetic, responsible young people who were good at origami).

It’s possible to survive without as much help, but I find that our family gets more done with more help–for example, having lawn help frees my husband up to do more maintenance work indoors that would be expensive hired out. And, obviously, my friend gets more done and with less stress when she has my daughter to help her out.

It’s basic economics! Specialization of labor. I just wish we had the money It would be a nice thing to have, but not “eat rice and beans every day in order to pay for it” nice.

 

[pensmama87]

It’s basic economics! Specialization of labor. I just wish we had the money It would be a nice thing to have, but not “eat rice and beans every day in order to pay for it” nice.

You may one day!

We still eat rice and beans a lot, but we did recently up our discretionary spending. We still don’t outsource much, but my kids thought it a fantastic treat to go through the car wash the other day (yep, even the $5 car wash is a luxury to us! Before that we had to remember to park on the street when it rained. )

I dream of hiring monthly or twice monthly housekeeping the next time we have a baby. Or diaper service. I used to think “Oh, I’ll sleep when I’m dead,” but I’d really like to sleep a bit more now, if I could.

 

[Xantippe]

It’s basic economics! Specialization of labor. I just wish we had the money It would be a nice thing to have, but not “eat rice and beans every day in order to pay for it” nice.

Yeah.

The lawn is really dramatic, because there are two guys and they have GREAT equipment and finish everything in under half an hour, whereas back when my husband did it, it wrecked the whole Saturday.

 

[Xantippe]

You may one day!

We still eat rice and beans a lot, but we did recently up our discretionary spending. We still don’t outsource much, but my kids thought it a fantastic treat to go through the car wash the other day (yep, even the $5 car wash is a luxury to us! Before that we had to remember to park on the street when it rained. )

I dream of hiring monthly or twice monthly housekeeping the next time we have a baby. Or diaper service. I used to think “Oh, I’ll sleep when I’m dead,” but I’d really like to sleep a bit more now, if I could.

Funny!

The car wash is great fun with kids.

Even a monthly housecleaner for the first 3 months would make a big difference.