Low sperm count

[NFPfamily]

Pug:

The acceptability of a perforated condom to collect sperm raises questions for me. Okay, first, there is no general contraceptive intent because the couple wants to get pregnant, and they would be thrilled to get pregnant during the collection action. But that is not enough to make it okay to use a condom, because otherwise there would not be this perforated business. So, it does not seem to be strictly in the intent that makes it okay.

Thus it must really lie in the perforation. But the couple’s purpose would not be achieved if all the sperm went through the perforation. So they have to be specifically intending to hold some of the sperm back. Reducing sperm count delivered will reduce fertility rates. So is the deal with the perforation that it reduces the fertility rate somewhat, but not as much as a regular condom does? Remember, a condom by itself is not a 100% reduction in fertility rates. So this makes it look like a sliding scale of fertility rate reduction is determining if the action is okay or not, which doesn’t quite ring true.

It almost seems like saying that a condom is tolerable, so long as it is shoddy.

Well, I didn’t make this up. It is deemed acceptable by the Church because, again, it remains open to life and is done through marital intercourse. If you don’t agree with that, then don’t do it. I was just relaying information that I have for couples who are experiencing infertility issues (I am an NFP instructor).

 

[NFPfamily]

jw999:

I worked in a medical laboratory and you are not supposed to take a sample in a condom for a sperm count because a lot of them have spermicides in them

You didn’t work in a NFP friendly lab then. There are places to go that will accept such samples (and there are condoms that do not contain spermicides, which of course would be used).

 

[NFPfamily]

Scott_Lafrance:

Personally, I agree with your sentiment. I prefer to do it the old fashioned way, and not rely on technology to help me procreate. I just feel deep down in my soul that if God wants me to have my own child, He’ll make it happen, as long as my wife and I live chastely and keep our “habits” open to life. What troubles me is that there seems to be a contigent of people out there who insist on having their OWN children, even taking part in activities that have been deemed unsuitable for Catholics, like IVF and artificial insemination. What about adopting? Isn’t that a bigger mark of love but to take a child that is not your own and make her your own child? Isn’t that what God does for us? When we submit ourselves to the will of God, we become adopted sons and daughters, brothers and sisters of Jesus?

Great post ! I tend to feel the same way, but I can’t say that I’ve ever been in the situation of facing infertility- it is heartbreaking to see couples going through it, but I think that adoption is a wonderful thing and I admire people for going that route. It is so sad to think of all the frozen embryos being stored to use in fertility procedures, which most are discarded. Anyway, great post and God bless!

 

[Benedictus]

NFPfamily:

Well, I didn’t make this up. It is deemed acceptable by the Church because, again, it remains open to life and is done through marital intercourse. If you don’t agree with that, then don’t do it.

Do you know of Church documents that support a couple using defective condoms? I know that people often talk about using low-quality condoms for this purpose, but I’m curious if the Chruch has ever approved this.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

OldStNick:

Wow. I hope the condoms are empty at that point.

Combat ain’t always perfect, sometimes you gotta use what you got…

 

[NFPfamily]

Benedictus:

Do you know of Church documents that support a couple using defective condoms? I know that people often talk about using low-quality condoms for this purpose, but I’m curious if the Chruch has ever approved this.

The information I received is from the Pope Paul VI Institute. If you would like to contact them regarding the documents to support the practice, their information is:

POPE PAUL VI INSTITUTE
for the Study of Human Reproduction
6901 Mercy Road
Omaha, NE 68106-2604
Phone: (402) 390-6600
FAX: (402) 390-9851
Email: popepaul@popepaulvi.com

Hope this helps!

 

[NFPfamily]

Scott_Lafrance:

Combat ain’t always perfect, sometimes you gotta use what you got…

Actually, I don’t think that all of the sample would pass through the perforations. The holes I would think would be big, but not THAT big!

 

[Rascal]

There was a couple that had written to CCL regarding this method. The couple couldn’t conceive, so met with a doctor that recommended a sperm sample. They used a perforated condom to take the sample to the lab. Soon after, they realized they were pregnant. If they hadn’t used the perforated condom or being open to life, that would have been much harder to achieve. They felt fortunate not to have to go through any fertility testing or treatments.

As far as the morality of using a perforated condom for sperm sample, if a condom company started selling perforated condoms for contracpetion, do you honestly think they would sell well? I seriously doubt one would use a perforated condom to contracept, so accusing someone of that is rather rediculous.

 

[Pug]

NFPfamily:

Well, I didn’t make this up. It is deemed acceptable by the Church because, again, it remains open to life and is done through marital intercourse. If you don’t agree with that, then don’t do it. I was just relaying information that I have for couples who are experiencing infertility issues (I am an NFP instructor).

NFPfamily, I’m sorry! I seem to have come off with a tone I didn’t intend. I should have put a confusion smiley in there somewhere. I was just hoping since you brought it up that you (or someone else) might be able to explain the rationale behind why moralists give this advice or that you could post a link to a Church document that talks about it.

I wasn’t trying to imply anything about you, I was just thinking out loud. * I know you did not make it up*. I probably sounded intense because, well, sometimes I am when puzzling things out.:banghead:

 

[fix]

Rascal:

There was a couple that had written to CCL regarding this method. The couple couldn’t conceive, so met with a doctor that recommended a sperm sample. They used a perforated condom to take the sample to the lab. Soon after, they realized they were pregnant. If they hadn’t used the perforated condom or being open to life, that would have been much harder to achieve. They felt fortunate not to have to go through any fertility testing or treatments.

As far as the morality of using a perforated condom for sperm sample, if a condom company started selling perforated condoms for contracpetion, do you honestly think they would sell well? I seriously doubt one would use a perforated condom to contracept, so accusing someone of that is rather rediculous.

Exactly, a perforated condom would not be a contraceptive device.

 

[Catholic2003]

fix:

Exactly, a perforated condom would not be a contraceptive device.

So a married couple can use perforated condoms if they so choose, without having a medical reason?

 

[fix]

Catholic2003:

So a married couple can use perforated condoms if they so choose, without having a medical reason?

What would be the purpose? I am no moral theologian, but is it not the act of contraception, within the conjugal act, that is intrnsically evil? A condom is not intrinsically evil? BCPs are not intrinsically evil? Contraception, outside the conjugal act, is not intrinsically evil? That is why it is licit for rape victims.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Catholic2003:

So a married couple can use perforated condoms if they so choose, without having a medical reason?

The better question is, why would they? Why would you use a perforated condom with your spouse? What purpose is it serving?

 

[Catholic2003]

fix:

I am no moral theologian, but is it not the act of contraception, within the conjugal act, that is intrnsically evil?

The idea is that if a perforated condom is not considered a contraceptive device, then its use is okay under any circumstances. Conversely, if a perforated condom is considered a contraceptive device, then its use is wrong even to gather medical samples.

 

[Catholic2003]

Scott_Lafrance:

The better question is, why would they? Why would you use a perforated condom with your spouse? What purpose is it serving?

Does the morality depend on the purpose? If so, what purposes would be moral and what purposes would be immoral?

For example, one purpose might be to help prevent the spread of an STD.

 

[Giannawannabe]

When my husband and I went through infertility testing (before being fully in union with the Church), he had to give semen samples. They gave him a stack of pornographic magazines and sent him off. Disgusting, ain’t it?

God Bless
Giannawannabe

 

[NFPfamily]

Pug:

NFPfamily, I’m sorry! I seem to have come off with a tone I didn’t intend. I should have put a confusion smiley in there somewhere. I was just hoping since you brought it up that you (or someone else) might be able to explain the rationale behind why moralists give this advice or that you could post a link to a Church document that talks about it.

I wasn’t trying to imply anything about you, I was just thinking out loud. I know you did not make it up. I probably sounded intense because, well, sometimes I am when puzzling things out.:banghead:

It seems that I have also come off with a tone I didn’t intend! When I was saying my post in my head, it wasn’t in a mean-spirited voice, but I can see how that must have sounded. I was just in a rush and jotted my thoughts down without adding much “fluff.” I wasn’t offended by your post, I was just trying to post in a hurry! We’re A-OK! The information I use comes from Dr. Hilgers of the Pope Paul IV Institute, dedicated to using morally acceptable means to fertility and woman issues. Dr. Hilgers has done so much for his beliefs from Humanae Vitae, I’m sure that you can find a wealth of information from him by contacting the Institute at the contact information posted above.

 

[NFPfamily]

Catholic2003:

Does the morality depend on the purpose? If so, what purposes would be moral and what purposes would be immoral?

For example, one purpose might be to help prevent the spread of an STD.

From information I’ve gathered, this is how I’d answer that.

I’ll give you an example: If the husband has herpes and does not want his wife to get the virus from the skin to skin contact, then this would be permissible because it is remaining open to life.

If a couple wants to have relations during a fertile time and think their chances of not conceiving are better while using a perforated condom, then it would be using it as trying to prevent a pregnancy, thus not morally acceptable.

If a couple is seeking to correct fertility issues and do not use the condom as trying to prevent a pregnancy, then it is morally acceptable.

I believe the couple would have to have a morally sound reason to use the perforated condom, but it is not evil in and of itself because life can still result from the intercourse.

 

[fix]

Catholic2003:

The idea is that if a perforated condom is not considered a contraceptive device, then its use is okay under any circumstances. Conversely, if a perforated condom is considered a contraceptive device, then its use is wrong even to gather medical samples.

Again, the device is not the issue, but the intent is. If the intent is not to contracept, then I would think it would be licit.

As an aside, if the holes are large enough to allow a sperm through, I would think any virus could get through. Are you making a case to “allow” condoms when one spouse has something like HIV?

 

[NFPfamily]

fix:

Again, the device is not the issue, but the intent is. If the intent is not to contracept, then I would think it would be licit.

As an aside, if the holes are large enough to allow a sperm through, I would think any virus could get through. Are you making a case to “allow” condoms when one spouse has something like HIV?

That is why I made the distinction of a likely transmission of skin to skin viral infection. I’m not sure if that’s what the poster meant though. Hopefully people thinking this would realize that HIV is transmitted through the fluid, thus a perforated condom wouldn’t offer much protection.