LSD experience oriented dynamic heart burn or truth???

[Daniel_Marsh]

When talking with LDS something that is often overlooked is their experience oriented dynamic. Frankly, they expect something supernational to happen and many ordinary everyday things are interpreted as having a supernational cause. This is one of the reasons that LDS missionaries are taught to bear testimony, and tell prospects to pray for a buringing in their bosom. This is also, part of the dynamic at work when their authors produce “faith affirming” history books.

A side example of this at work is Near Death Experiences.

apologeticsindex.org/n00.html#nde

Betty Eadie is a Mormon who claimed to have had a Near-Death Experience (NDE). She authored the books “Embraced by the Light” and “The Awakening Heart”. “Embraced by the Light” originally was published as a Mormon book, by a Mormon publisher.

According to an article in the March 6, 1993 Ogden, Utah Standard-Examiner, “Eadie said she was an inactive member of the LDS [Mormon] Church at the time [of her supposed near-death experience] and since then has become active. She said she was told during her after-life experience that the LDS Church is ‘the truest Church on the earth.’ But her LDS background wasn’t included in the book, she said, because ‘the book was meant to go out to the world, not just to LDS members.’”

One of the Mormon doctrines repeatedly stressed in Embraced by the Light is the pre-mortal existence of human spirits: “Then I began to see images in my mind of a time long ago, of an existence before my life on earth?.The fact of a pre-earth life crystallized in my mind?.” (p. 31). Eadie further states: “Things were coming back to me from long before my life on earth, things that had been purposely blocked from me by a ‘veil’ of forgetfulness at my birth” (p. 44). The term “veil of forgetfulness” is distinctively Mormon.

Source: Book Review: Embraced by the Light By Richard Abanes

apologeticsindex.org/e11.html

leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/eadie.html

google.com/search?hl=en&q=embraced+by+the+light+deception+LDS

The purpose of this thread is to challenge my Catholic Brothern to share their testimony to appeal to LDS they are talking with.

 

[TOP]

Lsd heartburn would be a bad trip man.

 

[Ella]

I think the LSD experience might be more profound than the LDS experience…

 

[TOP]

I think the LSD experience might be more profound than the LDS experience…

 

[thomasf]

In my experience, God often speaks to us in small little ways, with a quiet voice we can hear in our hearts and know it as truth. Rather than spectacular, dynamic experiences. A key thing to remember, God isn’t the only one trying to speak to us. It’s important to be able to discern the truth from the flash.

 

[christcnection1]

Yes, please change that title. The only reason it caught my attention was because I use to do a lot of LSD before I gave my life to the Lord.

I would have been better off in the LDS crowd than with the LSD crowd.

Also, I think you meant to say “supernatural,” not “supernational,” right?

Again, this is confusing because Mormons tend to very nationalistic.

God bless,
JB

 

[truthsilence]

The purpose of this thread is to challenge my Catholic Brothern to share their testimony to appeal to LDS they are talking with.

Hello Daniel,

I almost missed your comment there at the end. Hopefully others will respond. Testimonies mean a lot to LDS.

First of all, Amen, thomasf.

I can’t really say too much about people’s perceptions on a pre-existence - I’ve never grasped the concept. I believe Christ is the only person who has ever been human, with a pre-existence. Angels are another story - but then they aren’t human are they? They are different beings entirely. I believe angels are the beings spoken of in the scriptures when they speak about wars in heaven, etc. Not pre-existent humans. As far as Eadies books, she was afterall LDS, although inactive. I would guess her affiliation there possibly had some influence on her perception…

I am a Catholic and a former Mormon. My first response as far as testimony, would be to say how happy I am that I can proclaim **Jesus is Lord **in every sense of the word from everlasting to everlasting, with no beginning and no end.

In my experience as a LDS, whenever anyone would mention Jesus is God, they would always be met with the qualifier: “Well, Jesus is a God”. No! Jesus is not just “a” God. Believe it or not, it is an amazing, amazing thing, to be able to say that and really mean it, and know that you belong to a Church that believes it too, and backs it up, all the way.

I am still learning so much about my faith and, by God’s grace, about myself. I don’t question doctrine in the Catholic church. I accept it as the church Christ established, and I trust completely that there was never a time when his gospel, or the authority to act in his name was taken from the earth. In other words: no apostasy.

He promised he would be with us until the end of time and in the most real way possible, he is - in the Eucharist. Mass has been celebrated in one place or another on earth, and with the angels in heaven, every single day without a break for 2000 years. That’s a promise fulfilled.

I get emotional to the point of tears at nearly every mass. But that does not determine my faith. I feel like I am responding each day to a call that is initiated by God as much, or possibly (probably) more, than my own effort. That realization itself, has brought such comfort and growth. When I remember to get out of the way and let God in to teach me, amazing things happen. *Experience oriented *dynamics of faith. Things that would be very difficult to share here, but very real things indeed.

All praise, honor and glory to His name.

ts

 

[Lehl]

Brothers and sisters in Christ, I would like to take this opportunity today to bare my testimony.

Three years ago I was pregnant with my 4th child. Strangely enough, I had an extreme sense of foreboding with my AFP test. (A test used to screen for chromosomal abnormalities and neural tube defects) I actually made a special trip into the doctor’s office to get reweighed before the test since I hadn’t been weighed in several weeks and I knew that the maternal weight was important to the calculation of the final result. I was extremely nervous about the test which was bizarre since I had 3 other pregnancies and never gave that test a second thought.

My results came in 2 days before Christmas. Abnormal. I wasn’t really surprised, just crushed. I “KNEW” something was wrong. I had a 1:55 chance of having a baby with Trisomy 18. T18 (Edward’s Syndrome) is considered incompatible with life. It is an extra chromosome not unlike T21 (Down’s Syndome) but this one is much much worse. Ninety percent of babies with T18 are dead by age one. Usually, they die in utero or the first week of birth.

So here I was faced with this absolutely devasting news right at Christmas. That time was an absolute blurr, mostly because I couldn’t stop crying.

We went to Christmas Eve Mass at a different parish mostly because ours is so large and if you don’t go at least an hour early, you’re not going to get a seat. So we went to this other parish which actually doesn’t have it’s permanent building yet because it is brand new. So finding a seat is not nearly as difficult.

Father came up to our family and welcomed us most warmly. He kept complimenting us on our family. Since Mass was to start and he was very busy, we couldn’t tell him what was troubling us so much. He did spontaneously give me a blessing which made me cry and I had to try to keep myself under control the rest of the Mass as best I could. I’ve never prayed so hard in my entire life.

We went home, put the kids to bed and talked. I’m so ashamed of this, but it is part of the story and part of my testimony…so I will share…

We were given our options from the genetic counselor. Of course I hadn’t had the amniocentsis test yet to confirm the T18, but to discuss all our options should we get the diagnosis…The prognosis was awful. The doctor said we could obviously carry the pregnancy for as long as it would go or I could have labor induced so basically the baby would be delivered much too early to survive…on purpose. Certainly not a partial-birth abortion, but a way to end the pregnancy.

I would be lying if I didn’t admit in the moments of my most dark, desperate thoughts that I did not seriously consider that as an option. I thought hysterically, how can I continue a pregnancy of a baby that is doomed to die? How can I plan for a funeral after I deliver? I did just want the situation to just go away. I then turned away from my pregnancy. I didn’t want to get attached.

It didn’t help that my husband’s parents are Mormon. Certainly they were extremely saddened by the situation, but me “aborting” the pregnancy in this circumstance is certainly permissible in their church. Listening to them only seemed to encourage me to think of the “easy way out”. At that time, my husband was inactive LDS. He has since converted to Catholicism. I’d like to think this experience is a part of that.

I went for the amniocentsis and then began the longest wait I’ve ever endured.

However, during the wait, I suddenly had a feeling of peace come over me. I had made my decision. I knew by the extreme peace I finally felt after these 3 weeks of absolute torment that my decision for life no matter what the result of the test, was the absolute right one. I know the holy spirit was with me and everything was going to be all right. I felt the loving arms of our savior carrying me, just like in that poem.

At that time, I think my husband still had decided on the early delivery, so I kept my final decision to myself to avoid any more strife since it wasn’t necessary to bring it up.

We finally got our results and all our baby’s chromosomes were completely normal. It was a false positive…or divine intervention?

That Easter, right before we delivered our precious baby, we ended up at that other parish for Mass (again since we couldn’t get out the door early enough ). Father came right up and had remembered us from Christmas. He saw my huge belly and immediately put his hands on it and gave me the most beautiful blessing I’ve ever heard. I wish I could remember it all, but it contained Luke 1:41 “When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.” And my baby moved just then and leapt in my womb. It was like we came full circle.

We are truly blessed.

 

[Aramis]

I had a religious experience at a Mormon Ward Chapel… I attended a friend’s child’s blessing and name-giving.

Their celebration of their “ward service” was almost a parody of the Roman Mass.

I was truly creeped out by it, feeling not the presence of the Holy, but of the adversary.

It was eerie.
An introit & greeting.
The readings.
The sermon.
The testimonies.
The blessing and name-giving. (The babe, when picked up by the presiding bishop, pea-soup-ala-the-Exorcist projectile vomited in his face. She did so again at the conclusion.)
The commemoration of the Last Supper, with white bread and grape juice, both in plastic cups.
The dismissal.

It was creepy, and quite disturbing.
(Said friend was a convert to Mormonism, from fundamentalism, with an intermediate year in RC RCIA. She has since divorced her LDS non-sealed “jack-mormon” husband, and cut off all her non-mormon friends.)

I decided that never again would I ever set foot in that accursed chapel.

I had been there once before, for said friend’s wedding. It was, well, bare minimum under Alaska Law, and not even any readings. One prayer over the couple, and a recitation of the Our Father.

I do experience heart burn often from Mormons… it’s the bile raised by the heresies they spout, usually in good faith, and with true belief in what they spout. Their leaders will have some 'splaining to do when they meet their maker.

And yes, I HAVE read the Bk of Mormon. Good fiction. I’ve also read the D&C and the Pearl of Great Price. I find it all to be quite bogus. It’s as contrived & bizarre as the Gnostic Gospels.

 

[rmcmullan]

Their celebration of their “ward service” was almost a parody of the Roman Mass.

I was truly creeped out by it, feeling not the presence of the Holy, but of the adversary.

Aramis, you bring up a good point. What makes a posting inappropriate? I would advise you to review the forum rules before you put up another one of these “Mormons worship the devil” posts again. You will find the forum rules in the “Important Forum Information” at the head of the forum topic.

• Is the post civil and charitable?
• Does the post challenge those to whom it is directed or does it bash them?
• And remember: always, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I have read Betty Eadie’s book and I had no problem with it. It was way better than Dannion Brinkley’s Saved by the Light which was, uh, strange. In general, I wouldn’t advise taking either of their experiences as anything other than something to wonder about. But overall, for Christianity, it does seem as though there’s a lot of first hand experience for life after death. I’ve met people who have gone through this experience and, as is common, it made them much more religious. So don’t cast out the baby with the bathwater on this one.

 

[Allweather]

I have read Betty Eadie’s book and I had no problem with it. It was way better than Dannion Brinkley’s Saved by the Light which was, uh, strange. In general, I wouldn’t advise taking either of their experiences as anything other than something to wonder about. But overall, for Christianity, it does seem as though there’s a lot of first hand experience for life after death. I’ve met people who have gone through this experience and, as is common, it made them much more religious. So don’t cast out the baby with the bathwater on this one.

I haven’t read this book, or ever heard of Betty Eadie.

R, what do you think of the point made in the OP that this author didn’t mention in her book that she had a history of being LDS?

Considering that the vast majority of NDE experiences coincide with the religious training had before the NDE.

This could be construed as an attempt by the LDS (wasn’t it originally published by a Mormon publisher?) to imply that a person with no Mormon background was being told by the Heavenly beings that Mormonism is “true” and then sending her back to become Mormon, and testify to the world via her book that this is so. Seems contrived, based on what was written in the OP.

 

[Allweather]

The commemoration of the Last Supper, with white bread and grape juice, both in plastic cups.

I’ve been to a few sacrament meetings and noticed that only water was used, rather than grape juice or wine.

Do some Mormons use grape juice?

I just asked the fiance about this, and she said she’d never heard of anything but water being used for any sacrament service.

 

[truthsilence]

Brothers and sisters in Christ, I would like to take this opportunity today to bare my testimony.

Dear Lehl,

Oh, how wonderful for you! I am so happy for you! What a blessing to have a healthy baby. And how awesome that your husband listened to God’s call, and converted to the Church. I’m positive your faith and determination was a great example to him. Wow. The experience you had with Father giving you that blessing must have been amazing and very comforting. Thank you for sharing your testimony with us.

Right now in my family, we have a new baby with a rare and very serious brain malfomation called hemimegalencephaly. It is so heartbreaking to see this sweet little baby going through so much. But he is a miracle to us. He has brought such love into our hearts and has taught us so much about faith, patience and humility. I am hesitant to share a lot on a public forum, since this is not my own child and I cannot speak for the parents. I can only share that we are experiencing God’s unconditional and awe-inspiring love, through the precious life of this little child.

Peace and Gods blessings to you,
ts

 

[twosweetgirls]

^Lehl, your testimony gave me goosebumps at the end. Yes, Jesus was most certainly carrying you–and your baby, too! I can’t imagine the true emotional hell you went through, but as a mother of two I can relate with a mother’s heart. God Bless You!

 

[truthsilence]

I’ve been to a few sacrament meetings and noticed that only water was used, rather than grape juice or wine.

Do some Mormons use grape juice?

I just asked the fiance about this, and she said she’d never heard of anything but water being used for any sacrament service.

I’ve never heard of anyone using grape juice in an LDS sacrament service since the early years of the church, when I think they may have. I can’t remember exactly when, but I seem to recall at one point it was decided water would be just as suitable as wine or grape juice.

I read Betty Eadie’s book “Embraced by the Light”. I actually enjoyed it at the time. Her descriptions of the spiritual aspects of all creation were quite thought provoking. She described things such as flowers. On earth, beautiful as it may be she said, it’s like looking at the negative of a photo, compared to the real vibrance and clarity of color, etc. in what a flower looks like in heaven. Not a very good synopsis, but that is part of what I remember about the book. At the time I read it, I remember there was some controversy in church circles over it. Some leaders (particularly in one of my friends’ ward) were cautioning members not to read her book as though it were doctrine. I actually even went to hear Eadie speak about her experience. She spent almost the entire time defending herself and talking about all of the opposition she was receiving from people within the church and how hurtful it was to her. It was awkward and I was disappointed that I drove the twenty miles to hear her speak. At the same time, I felt bad for her though. It was just weird.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I had a religious experience at a Mormon Ward Chapel… I attended a friend’s child’s blessing and name-giving. …

This reminds me of Acts 16, and I see it as very encouraging.

16Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you a way to be saved.” 18She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.

What Aramis was experiencing is known as the gift of discernment and is completely biblical.

In Christianity, to discern is to…

dentify the true nature of a spirit, doctrine, practice, or group; distinguish truth from error, extreme error from slight error, the divine from the human and the demonic.
Definition from: “A Biblical Guide To Orthodoxy And Heresy Part One: The Case For Doctrinal Discernment” (an article from the Christian Research Journal, Summer 1990, page 28) by Robert M. Bowman.

The two main Greek words translated as “discernment” are anakrino, meaning to examine or judge closely, and diakrino, to separate out, to investigate, to examine.

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. {13} For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. {14} But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
Hebrews 5:12-14 NNAS

The Bible teaches that Christians ought to learn to discern. They must be able to test teachings against the Biblical standard.

Paul told the Thessalonians:

Do not quench the Spirit; {20} do not despise prophetic utterances. {21} But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; {22} abstain from every form of evil.
Source: 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22 NNAS

While he encouraged the Thessalonians not to discount or dismiss the Holy Spirit by despising that which was being taught as coming from God (prophecy), Paul instructed them to test everything.

Earlier, Luke had noted that the people of Berea …

… were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining [anakrino] the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. {12} Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men.
Source: Acts 17:11-12 NNA

Christians who believe that the Spiritual Gifts are still available today, see the gift of ‘‘distinguishing between spirits’’ (discerning whether they are human, from God, or demonic), to be a special form of discernment (revealed, instead of learned):

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. {8} To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, {9} to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, {10} to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. {11} All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
1 Corinthians 12:7-11

apologeticsindex.org/d26.html



It is not demonizing if one is describing the demonic.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Any more catholic testimonies out there?

I mean among posters that is.

 

[christcnection1]

Any more catholic testimonies out there?

I mean among posters that is.

I have a free book I can have sent to you regarding my testimony.

It’s on my conversion from agnosticism, to Evangelical Protestantism, to Catholicism. It’s a very supernatural story.

If anyone else is interested, I would be happy to give them details.

God bless,
JB

 

[Lehl]

Dear Lehl,

And how awesome that your husband listened to God’s call, and converted to the Church. I’m positive your faith and determination was a great example to him.

Thank you.

Actually, I think more Catholics should think about their testimonies and share them. It is not something we usually do, but I know that it was one of my most favorite things to listen to when I would occasionally attend an LDS meeting with my husband’s family for a special occasion–like a nephew or niece getting blessed. (I thought of it as quid pro quo since it was a way to get them into the Catholic Church for our children’s baptisms )

Certainly I disagreed with the content about “I know the church is true, I know Joseph Smith is a prophet of God” and all that. And I certainly would have liked to hear more about Jesus and God…not just them adding the tagline “I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen” But I did enjoy listening to their stories.

Now that my husband has converted to Catholicism, we are basically disowned by that side of the family. Of course all these years they held out great hope that I would be the one converting. In fact, it got back to me that my Mormon bishop father-in-law claimed to the rest of the family that he had recieved revelation that I would be “converting shortly.” More proof of his lack of divine inspiration . I am forever grateful to my parents that they saw to it that I was properly catachised. I was never in danger of even considering becoming Mormon.

My husband has very much been called, it took 10 years…but it happened. He’s not only a convert, but one that makes most Catholics look bad, me included. He teaches RCIA and has felt the calling to the diaconate. In fact our pastor and the other deacons have repeatedly asked him to consider the diaconate. Even our bishop knows him by name and has asked him. Shortly after he converted he was asked to speak to the congregation. Usually converts are not asked to do this, but they felt his story was so unusual, especially how much he sacraficed to Come Home (his family). So basically he bared his testimony. It did make quite a big impression as people even now meet him for the first time and say “Oh yeah, I remember you and your story!”

So I think I will have a deacon in the house quite soon. I don’t think his Mormon bishop father saw that one coming at all.

 

[rmcmullan]

I haven’t read this book, or ever heard of Betty Eadie.

R, what do you think of the point made in the OP that this author didn’t mention in her book that she had a history of being LDS?

Allweather, this book was on the best sellers list for awhile many years ago, you could still probably still find it if there were any bookstores left where you live. All the book and record/CD stores where I live keep disappearing. But I’m not sure if what the OP claims is even true. In her book, she talks about being raised by nuns. I’ve heard different things about her religious affiliation but she doesn’t seem to be too strongly aligned with any particular religion. If there’s a Mormon influence, it’s a pretty gentle one.

If she is Mormon, she doesn’t make a big deal out of it and I don’t know why anyone would. It seems to me that she’s more about compassion and tenderness than any particluar ideology. And she isn’t claiming any divine revelation, only telling people of her experience.