Lube

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This is an interesting discussion and I admit that I was ignorant that lube could have this effect.

But even if we take it that it does, could we nonetheless make a case that it would be tolerable under double effect? Let’s say that for a couple to comfortably have intercourse, lube is needed. That there is some effect on sperm motility is unintented and the act is otherwise procreative.

Of course, given the option of taking a lube that does not have such an effect, one would need to choose such a lube.
 
I’ll look into this…but let’s suppose they are not available for me, or any given person?
They are readily available…

Otherwise one would have to look into the particular case and at the principles involved and the proposed product.
 
KY, Astroglide, Touch, Olive Oil, and saliva all inhibit sperm mobility in-vitro. For couples having a very difficult time conceiving I think canola oil or mineral oil is a better option and doesn’t inhibit sperm mobility.

Interestingly, from a moral perspective, studies do not show that the above lubricants decrease fertility, they just decrease sperm mobility. In that sense, it doesn’t seem to me that they would be immoral. A couple who uses KY and conceives every time isn’t committing a sin (assuming they know it decreases sperm mobility). Smoking and alcohol definitely contribute to decreased sperm quality. Is it wrong for sexually active men to drink or smoke? Only if they are having difficulty with conception? Clearly these lubricants are not contraception because they don’t decrease fertility rates, even if they do affect sperm mobility.

You guys are going to drive yourselves nuts worrying about this.
 
You guys are going to drive yourselves nuts worrying about this.
Yes, us Catholics tend to worry about almost everything.

You mention that while sperm mobility is decreased, fertility is not. That’s interesting. At the risk of getting overly graphic, perhaps lubricant allows for deeper penetration and insemination closer to the cervix, thereby offsetting the affect on sperm mobility?

Anyway, I’m not too concerned about the morality of this, but I will look out for the lube suggested earlier that does not affect sperm in the way tha some do.
 
You mention that while sperm mobility is decreased, fertility is not. That’s interesting. At the risk of getting overly graphic, perhaps lubricant allows for deeper penetration and insemination closer to the cervix, thereby offsetting the affect on sperm mobility?
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That may be, I don’t really know. I will say the studies that look at these expose the sperm to much higher quantities for a much longer period of time than would occur in the natural environment. For men of normal fertility, the sheer number of sperm probably overcomes any inhibited mobility. This is all conjecture.

Also, the Pre-Seed lubricant shows no decreased mobility as previously mentioned.
 
I get three tuition bills monthly that demonstrate that Astroglide glycerin free stuff doesn’t reduce fertility a darn bit. 😉

And I’m suspicious of claims that they even could. What are you guys DOING with this stuff? Add just enough to the part that needs to slide past other parts to make things comfortable for the wife. No need for obstructive globs or anything. And if the male part are working right, the semen gets shot out beyond the lube contact area anyways.

I’m thinking ya’ll are either a touch scrupulous or need to read the directions! 😃
 
Because it can impede the mobility of the sperm and can otherwise harm them.

Only certain ones do not.
dare I ask… unless you’re having trouble conceiving why would you worry about this? :confused:
 
dare I ask… unless you’re having trouble conceiving why would you worry about this? :confused:
Should one introduce a product into the marital act that harms the sperm or the mobility of the sperm or is even sperm-toxic?

So yes the concern is that if one would be using such a product – that one chooses one that will not do such.
 
FYI: As I recall the pre-seed noted above – also makes a “pre” which does not effect the mobility etc of the sperm etc but does not have the things to give extra help for the sperm to get where their going.
 
Should one introduce a product into the marital act that harms the sperm or the mobility of the sperm or is even sperm-toxic?

So yes the concern is that if one would be using such a product – that one chooses one that will not do such.
If you’re concerned about sperm quality then you should skip the lube. That much is true. But you should also avoid: tighty whiteys, saunas, soy products, cell phones, lap tops. You should also drink lots of water, take your vitamins, exercise, and maintain a healthy weight. Again, unless you’re having trouble conceiving why would you be worried about your sperm quality or mobility?
 
If you’re concerned about sperm quality then you should skip the lube. That much is true. But you should also avoid: tighty whiteys, saunas, soy products, cell phones, lap tops. You should also drink lots of water, take your vitamins, exercise, and maintain a healthy weight. Again, unless you’re having trouble conceiving why would you be worried about your sperm quality or mobility?
The distinction to be noted is that this is something that is directly added to the actual marital act–effecting mobility and even harming or killing the sperm in the marital act.

For example from the pre-seed site:

“Published studies over the past three decades have shown that most “everyday” lubricants and even olive oil, glycerin, saliva and water can kill sperm. In fact, sperm damage with leading lubricants has been cited as similar to that seen with contraceptive gels (Tulandi et al, 1982; Frishman et al, 1992; Miller et al, 1994; Kutteh et al, 1996; Anderson et al, 1998; Agarwal et al, 2008; Vargas et al, 2011).”

Hence I would say choose the ones that do NOT have that effect if one uses a lubricant.
 
Should one introduce a product into the marital act that harms the sperm or the mobility of the sperm or is even sperm-toxic?

So yes the concern is that if one would be using such a product – that one chooses one that will not do such.
If that is the case, men should also avoid warm baths and hot tubs. Oh and briefs, only boxers for Catholic men.

Sorry, but that sounds crazy.
 
If that is the case, men should also avoid warm baths and hot tubs. Oh and briefs, only boxers for Catholic men.

Sorry, but that sounds crazy.
The distinction to be noted is that this is something that is directly added to the actual marital act–effecting mobility and even harming or killing the sperm in the marital act.

For example from the pre-seed site:

“Published studies over the past three decades have shown that most “everyday” lubricants and even olive oil, glycerin, saliva and water can kill sperm. In fact, sperm damage with leading lubricants has been cited as similar to that seen with contraceptive gels (Tulandi et al, 1982; Frishman et al, 1992; Miller et al, 1994; Kutteh et al, 1996; Anderson et al, 1998; Agarwal et al, 2008; Vargas et al, 2011).”

Hence I would say choose the ones that do NOT have that effect if one uses a lubricant.
 
The distinction to be noted is that this is something that is directly added to the actual marital act–effecting mobility and even harming or killing the sperm in the marital act.

For example from the pre-seed site:

“Published studies over the past three decades have shown that most “everyday” lubricants and even olive oil, glycerin, saliva and water can kill sperm. In fact, sperm damage with leading lubricants has been cited as similar to that seen with contraceptive gels (Tulandi et al, 1982; Frishman et al, 1992; Miller et al, 1994; Kutteh et al, 1996; Anderson et al, 1998; Agarwal et al, 2008; Vargas et al, 2011).”

Hence I would say choose the ones that do NOT have that effect if one uses a lubricant.
First of all, note that this is from the advertising website of a product, so it is going to selectively report results. Secondly ‘sperm damage’ or impaired sperm mobility is not the same as impaired fertility, as someone else has said. Someone with more medical expertise than the average poster would need to evaluate what these claims actually mean. It is a grey area to say the least.

I’m going to introduce some Catholic moral philosophy here - the dominant school of thought when questioning whether a moral law exists in Catholic teaching is called Probabiliorism, this says that we are bound to follow the more safe opinion unless the less safe opinion is more probable, where the question is whether a law has ceased to function. What is the law in this case - the law against artificial contraception. What is the cessation - whether an unintended consequence of a lubricant impeding sperm mobility is an instance of contraception. In the absence of a ruling from any legitimate authority, it is down to the individual conscience to judge whether the advertising blurb of a lube manufacturer establishes a more probable case for this being immoral than the absence of any warnings about lube in any of the major books on the Theology of the Body or any official clarification from the Magisterium.

It seems to me unlikely that this is a major issue, else someone would have ruled on it, either as a private theologian (Von Hildebrand, Christopher West) or as a dubium from one of the Vatican Congregations or in Bl John Paul II’s catechesis on the theology of the body. Since the studies quoted state that ‘saliva’ is one of the things that can kill sperm, we would have to look at what these theologians have said about oral stimulation as foreplay - almost universally, they do not condemn it. Presumably, if this is permitted, then so are commercially available non-sperimicidal lubes.

So, on the one hand, we have an advertiser selectively quoting studies, while making no actual claim that commercial lubes have a contraceptive effect, and on the other, we have complete silence from those who are involved in the study of Catholic sexual morality. What to make of that depends on your own conscience, but I personally don’t think it adds up to a more probable case against the permissibility of lube. I think this whole thing seems like scrupulosity or Jansenist Rigorism, we are not required to stop doing a morally neutral act just because of the remotest possibility of their being a law against it.
 
First of all, note that this is from the advertising website of a product, so it is going to selectively report results. Secondly ‘sperm damage’ or impaired sperm mobility is not the same as impaired fertility, as someone else has said. Someone with more medical expertise than the average poster would need to evaluate what these claims actually mean. It is a grey area to say the least.

I’m going to introduce some Catholic moral philosophy here - the dominant school of thought when questioning whether a moral law exists in Catholic teaching is called Probabiliorism, this says that we are bound to follow the more safe opinion unless the less safe opinion is more probable, where the question is whether a law has ceased to function. What is the law in this case - the law against artificial contraception. What is the cessation - whether an unintended consequence of a lubricant impeding sperm mobility is an instance of contraception. In the absence of a ruling from any legitimate authority, it is down to the individual conscience to judge whether the advertising blurb of a lube manufacturer establishes a more probable case for this being immoral than the absence of any warnings about lube in any of the major books on the Theology of the Body or any official clarification from the Magisterium.

It seems to me unlikely that this is a major issue, else someone would have ruled on it, either as a private theologian (Von Hildebrand, Christopher West) or as a dubium from one of the Vatican Congregations or in Bl John Paul II’s catechesis on the theology of the body. Since the studies quoted state that ‘saliva’ is one of the things that can kill sperm, we would have to look at what these theologians have said about oral stimulation as foreplay - almost universally, they do not condemn it. Presumably, if this is permitted, then so are commercially available non-sperimicidal lubes.

So, on the one hand, we have an advertiser selectively quoting studies, while making no actual claim that commercial lubes have a contraceptive effect, and on the other, we have complete silence from those who are involved in the study of Catholic sexual morality. What to make of that depends on your own conscience, but I personally don’t think it adds up to a more probable case against the permissibility of lube. I think this whole thing seems like scrupulosity or Jansenist Rigorism, we are not required to stop doing a morally neutral act just because of the remotest possibility of their being a law against it.
I am not going to get into answering all of this…(but I will note that the small amount of saliva that would remain-- I would conjecture --would not be something to compare with the adding a lubricant to the martial act that is known to hinder or even kill sperm.)

This is a known problem with many lubricants --our Catholic Doctor who was trained at the Paul VI institute first informed us of this reality (she does not work for the company in question --and I do not think she even knew of this company back then) as part of general information.

If readers would like to explore the issue further they may contact the Paul VI institute and the National Catholic Bioethics Center (ask for an ethicist) -and note the studies and the existence of Lubricants which do not cause such effects in ones discussion.

Moral Theologians can discuss the matter…and of course as with all things --the Church is the final judge on earth – (but often the Magisterium does not get into these sorts of things but leaves it for the Theologians and Christians to apply the moral principles)

If one should need to use a lubricant I would say choose one that does not have these effects.
 
Is it wrong to use anything that you honestly believe is an artificial contraceptive for the purpose of artificial contraception, even though it really isn’t, but only because you were following misinformation? Sure it is. It is the intention that harms the act, and the marital relationship.

Having said that: Some spermicides are combined with lubricants, and spermicides are artificial birth control, but lubricants aren’t birth control, per se.

Catholics may not seek out things that will interfere with the procreative nature of the marital act, but they don’t need to live their lives so that they avoid anything that could even possibly lower their fertility, let alone change things like artificial measures of sperm mobility that may not have any effect on pregnancy rates at all.

Good grief, you may as well worry that NFP lowers your “attitude of fertility”, harms your chance of conceiving by altering the hormones in your brain that in turn govern the health of your gonads, and therefore is artificially contraceptive in nature. There is a point where this kind of worry is not only scrupulous, but nonsensical.
 
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