Luke 1:26 - 33

[Tom]

I’d like to hear a reasonable explanation for the question and statement the Blessed Virgin Mary makes in Luke 1:34.
We have a young woman, engaged, and soon to be wed. We know she is a good pious Jew, versed in Scripture. When an angel of God visits her.
The question is, were she and Joseph planning on a “normal” sexual relationship in their marriage, or were they under a vow of celibacy?
By the context of her conversation with Gabriel, the truth is revealed.
www.drbo.org:

Luke 1: 26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

Understanding Jewish custom, which at the time, the betrothal was not more than one year, to allow ample time for preparation and seasonal work, and Mary and Joseph were already betrothed. Their wedding was in the near future.
www.drbo.org:

Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail,
• full of grace,
• the Lord is with thee:
• blessed art thou among women.

Now some translations have “favored daughter” rather than full of grace. Either way it’s an extraordinary greeting.
www.drbo.org:

29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.

Similarly Zachary was troubled, however his was of doubt, whereas she was troubled by what Gabriel was calling her, full of grace (or favored daughter), the Lord is with her, and that she was blessed among women.
www.drbo.org:

30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

Again, she has found grace with God.
Then come the disclosures from Gabriel:
www.drbo.org:

Luke 1:31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb

Should this fact have confused a woman who was engaged to be married? IF she were planning on a normal sexual relationship with her husband? This should have been absolutely no surprise to any woman who was engaged and was planning on having sex with her husband!
•
www.drbo.org:

and shalt bring forth a son

O.K. that’s news, worthy of a few questions
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www.drbo.org:

and thou shalt call his name Jesus.

More news, again worthy of a question or two
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www.drbo.org:

32 He shall be great

Big news, at least a few questions here
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and shall be called the Son of the most High

Wow, this title was reserved for kings! Would she have some questions!!!
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and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father

Oh My God!!! My son will be the king of Israel??? How? Would she have questions???
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www.drbo.org:

and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever

Wait, what do you mean forever? How shall this possibly be done???
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www.drbo.org:

33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end

What are you talking about Gabriel? How can his kingdom have no end?
So we have a woman about to be married, was she planning on a sexual relationship with her husband?
We can tell by her response to these remarkable revelations told to her by Gabriel.
Does she ask about her greetings?
About being a “favored daughter, or full of grace?
Does she ask about the “lord is with you” or about being “blessed among women?
Does she ask about the sex or the name of the child?
Does she question Gabriel about her son being “great”, or about him being called the son of the most high?
Does she question him being given the throne of David, the Davidic king?
Does she question how on earth her son can reign in the house of Jacob forever, or that his kingdom would have no end?
I mean these are some heavy revelations!
Actually the only thing a young woman about to be married and planning on having sexual relations with her husband WOULDN’T ask is how she shall, in the future, conceive!
So what does she ask?

 

[RobinK]

Luke 1 :31 And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will nme him Jesus…

If She hadn’t had intercourse yet or wasn’t planning to until she and Joseph were married, it would make total sense that she would ask how it could be…If I had never had intercourse and was pregnant I’d ask that too. She doesn’t ask any of the other questions you posed becasue she had total trust and faith in the Lord. That’s why she’s the MOTHER OF GOD and BLESSED AMONG WOMEN. See the below quote

Luke 1:38 Then Mary said, “Here am I, ther servent of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her.

Hope that helped.

AVE MARIA

 

[Tom]

She doesn’t ask…She accepts what the Lord wants for Her. That’s why she’s the Mother of God and BLESSED AMONG WOMEN. She had total faith and trust in God. That’s why She was chosen.

She does ask a question, as well as make a statement in verse 34. My point is a woman planning on having sexual relations with her husband would never have asked “how” she would conceive. She knew how children were conceived, if she had planned on having a sexual relationship with Joseph why did she ask? Only a woman who had NOT planned on having a sexual relationship would have asked such a question!

 

[RobinK]

I think that you forgot about the fact that Joseph was going to leave her because she was with child…They weren’t married yet so obviously it wasn’t his child…

 

[agangbern]

Young’s Literal Translation

“And Mary said unto the messenger, ‘How shall this be, seeing a husband I do not know?’”
scripturetext.com/luke/1-34.htm

“How shall this be…” This is about the future. Therefore, when Mama Mary asked that question, she was thinking that the conception was something to happen in the future yet.

Her question reveals that She and Joseph were planning to remain not knowing each other sexually during their entire marriage. Hence, the seeming impossibility of her getting pregnant even during their marriage.

 

[Tom]

I think that you forgot about the fact that Joseph was going to leave her because she was with child…They weren’t married yet so obviously it wasn’t his child…

That has nothing to do with her asking how she shall conceive! Joseph didn’t even know at that moment, nor did she know that the child would be conceived by the Holy Spirit! You’re getting way ahead of the story! She had no way of knowing whom the true father would be up to verse 33! It isn’t until AFTER she asks how she shall conceive that she learns whom the true Father of the child would be. Up until that moment any woman engaged to be wed would naturally assume the father would be her husband!

 

[Tom]

Young’s Literal Translation

“And Mary said unto the messenger, ‘How shall this be, seeing a husband I do not know?’”
scripturetext.com/luke/1-34.htm

Her question reveals that She and Joseph were planning to remain not knowing each other sexually during their entire marriage. Hence, the seeming impossibility of her getting pregnant even during their marriage.

Exactly!

 

[adolfo123]

Mary was married to Joseph at the time; until a year they where going to have relations if married was normal.But she question the the angel reveals she and Joseph enters a married of celibacy…

st. Augustine address this…

 

[Tom]

If She hadn’t had intercourse yet or wasn’t planning to until she and Joseph were married, it would make total sense that she would ask how it could be…If I had never had intercourse and was pregnant I’d ask that too.

Incorrect logic. Gabriel is telling her what “shall” happen. In the future. What else was in her future? Her marriage to Joseph. In order for your logic, Mary would have to have thought that Gabriel was telling her to fornicate outside of her upcoming marriage! Any chance of that? She would have naturally thought Gabriel was referring to after her marriage with Joseph!
Gabriel is telling her what shall be done, in her future, Mary is responding with an statement of her future, not current, virginity! I know not man, is her future!

 

[RobinK]

It all depends on what version of the Bible you’re using…The NRSV CATHOLIC explains it plain as day…And as someone who speaks three languages fluently I can tell you that literal translation is hardly ever correct. She could have easily meant that she was not yet married and there for didn’t know a husband.

 

[agangbern]

Exactly!

Just curious. Marriage is basically for procreation. But here comes a couple planning to enter into marriage but making sure to avoid procreation? Then what do you think is the basic purpose of marriage?

 

[Tom]

If She hadn’t had intercourse yet or wasn’t planning to until she and Joseph were married, it would make total sense that she would ask how it could be…If I had never had intercourse and was pregnant I’d ask that too.

She wasn’t pregnant yet. Gabriel is telling her what “shall” happen, not what had happened.

 

[Tom]

It all depends on what version of the Bible you’re using…The NRSV CATHOLIC explains it plain as day…And as someone who speaks three languages fluently I can tell you that literal translation is hardly ever correct. She could have easily meant that she was not yet married and there for didn’t know a husband.

Nope, it isn’t a matter of translations. If you have a different translation, post it. The question is prior to her being told whom the true Father is in every translation.

 

[RobinK]

The first major step in a Jewish marriage was betrothal.1 Betrothal involved the establishment of a marriage covenant. By Jesus’ time it was usual for such a covenant to be established as the result of the prospective bridegroom taking the initiative.2 The prospective bridegroom would travel from his father’s house to the home of the prospective bride. There he would negotiate with the father of the young woman to determine the price (mohar) that he must pay to purchase his bride.3 Once the bridegroom paid the purchase price, the marriage covenant was thereby established, and the young man and woman were regarded to be husband and wife.4 From that moment on the bride was declared to be consecrated or sanctified, set apart exclusively for her bridegroom.5 As a symbol of the covenant relationship that had been established, the groom and bride would drink from a cup of wine over which a betrothal benediction had been pronounced.6

After the marriage covenant had been established, the groom would leave the home of the bride and return to his father’s house. There he would remain separate from his bride for a period of twelve months.7 This period of separation afforded the bride time to gather her trousseau and to prepare for married life.8 The groom occupied himself with the preparation of living accommodations in his father’s house to which he could bring his bride.

At the end of the period of separation the groom would come to take his bride to live with him. The taking of the bride usually took place at night. The groom, best man and other male escorts would leave the groom’s father’s house and conduct a torch light procession to the home of the bride.9 Although the bride was expecting her groom to come for her, she did not know the exact time of his coming.10 As a result the groom’s arrival would be preceded by a shout.11 This shout would forewarn the bride to be prepared for the coming of the groom.

After the groom received his bride together with her female attendants, the enlarged wedding party would return from the bride’s home to the groom’s father’s house.12 Upon arrival there the wedding party would find that the wedding guests had assembled already.

Shortly after arrival the bride and groom would be escorted by the other members of the wedding party to the bridal chamber (huppah). Prior to entering the chamber the bride remained veiled so that no one could see her face.13 While the groomsmen and bridesmaids would wait outside, the bride and groom would enter the bridal chamber alone. There in the privacy of that place they would enter into physical union for the first time, thereby consummating the marriage that had been covenanted earlier.14

After the marriage was consummated, the groom would announce the consummation to the other members of the wedding party waiting outside the chamber (John 3:29). These people would pass on the news of the marital union to the wedding guests.15 Upon receiving this good news the wedding guests would feast and make merry for the next seven days.16

During the seven days of the wedding festivities, which were sometimes called “the seven days of the huppah,” the bride remained hidden in the bridal chamber.17 At the conclusion of these seven days the groom would bring his bride out of the bridal chamber, now with her veil removed, so that all could see who his bride was.

 

[Tom]

It all depends on what version of the Bible you’re using…The NRSV CATHOLIC explains it plain as day…And as someone who speaks three languages fluently I can tell you that literal translation is hardly ever correct. She could have easily meant that she was not yet married and there for didn’t know a husband.

Here is the RSV Catholic:
Luke 1:[26]
In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
[27] to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
[28] And he came to her and said, “Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”
[29] But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be.
[30] And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
[31] And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.
[32] He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High;
and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,
[33] and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever;
and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

Absolutely no difference! Except of course the favored one rather than full of grace. There is still no reason to ask how she shall (in the future) conceive!

 

[Tom]

The first major step in a Jewish marriage was betrothal.1 Betrothal involved the establishment of a marriage covenant. By Jesus’ time it was usual for such a covenant to be established as the result of the prospective bridegroom taking the initiative.2 The prospective bridegroom would travel from his father’s house to the home of the prospective bride. There he would negotiate with the father of the young woman to determine the price (mohar) that he must pay to purchase his bride.3 Once the bridegroom paid the purchase price, the marriage covenant was thereby established, and the young man and woman were regarded to be husband and wife.4 From that moment on the bride was declared to be consecrated or sanctified, set apart exclusively for her bridegroom.5 As a symbol of the covenant relationship that had been established, the groom and bride would drink from a cup of wine over which a betrothal benediction had been pronounced.6

After the marriage covenant had been established, the groom would leave the home of the bride and return to his father’s house. There he would remain separate from his bride for a period of twelve months.7 This period of separation afforded the bride time to gather her trousseau and to prepare for married life.8 The groom occupied himself with the preparation of living accommodations in his father’s house to which he could bring his bride.

At the end of the period of separation the groom would come to take his bride to live with him. The taking of the bride usually took place at night. The groom, best man and other male escorts would leave the groom’s father’s house and conduct a torch light procession to the home of the bride.9 Although the bride was expecting her groom to come for her, she did not know the exact time of his coming.10 As a result the groom’s arrival would be preceded by a shout.11 This shout would forewarn the bride to be prepared for the coming of the groom.

After the groom received his bride together with her female attendants, the enlarged wedding party would return from the bride’s home to the groom’s father’s house.12 Upon arrival there the wedding party would find that the wedding guests had assembled already.

Shortly after arrival the bride and groom would be escorted by the other members of the wedding party to the bridal chamber (huppah). Prior to entering the chamber the bride remained veiled so that no one could see her face.13 While the groomsmen and bridesmaids would wait outside, the bride and groom would enter the bridal chamber alone. There in the privacy of that place they would enter into physical union for the first time, thereby consummating the marriage that had been covenanted earlier.14

After the marriage was consummated, the groom would announce the consummation to the other members of the wedding party waiting outside the chamber (John 3:29). These people would pass on the news of the marital union to the wedding guests.15 Upon receiving this good news the wedding guests would feast and make merry for the next seven days.16

During the seven days of the wedding festivities, which were sometimes called “the seven days of the huppah,” the bride remained hidden in the bridal chamber.17 At the conclusion of these seven days the groom would bring his bride out of the bridal chamber, now with her veil removed, so that all could see who his bride was.

That’s a wonderful story, but what does it have to do with the timing? When Gabriel tells Mary what shall be done to her, why would she not expect this to occur within her marriage? Mary you shall conceive. O.K. Joe and I are going to have sex and I shall conceive. No questions needed, IF she and Joseph were planning on having sex. Her question is proof she and Joseph were under a vow of celibacy.

 

[Tom]

Just curious. Marriage is basically for procreation. But here comes a couple planning to enter into marriage but making sure to avoid procreation? Then what do you think is the basic purpose of marriage?

Marriage isn’t “basically” for procreation, if it were Zachary and Elizabeth would not have remained married would they? Elizabeth was believed to be barren. Sexual relations, and procreation are results of marriage, not the reason for it.

 

[RobinK]

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 o a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said , ‘Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you.’ 29 But she was much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. 30 The angel said to her. ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. 31 AND NOW, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will call him Jesus. 32 He will be great, and he will be calledd the son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to Him the throne of his ancestor David. 33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there weill be no end.’ 34 Mary said to the angel,’ How can this be, since I am a virgin?’ The angel said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called Son of God.

 

[Tom]

Luke 1 :31 And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will nme him Jesus…

Just a question, what version says "and “now”? None I’ve seen! Gabriel never says when, just that it’s in the future, by his use of “shall”. Shall is future tense. He didn’t say “now”, or “tonight”, or “next month”, or “next year”, and without the time constrain you’re adding the natural logic would point to her upcoming wedding with Joseph.

 

[RobinK]

She would question because she wasn’t technically married yet, which means that technically she shouldn’t be having sex, which technically is how children are conceived. Verse 31 clearly says that AND NOW you shall conceive…, Whether it happened that day or two weeks later, she still wasn’t married and probably knew that she wasn’t going to be for a while…She was still a virgin. Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant at the time and Mary went to visit her before she gave birth to John. At the time, Mary was also pregnant so I think that it’s safe to say that withing that span of 3 months she was still not married to Joseph (or rather therir one year waiting period wasn;t up) And nowhere does it say that She and Joseph went to see Elizabeth.