Luke 1:26 - 33

[Verisimilitude]

This is in reply to

“I don’t read this as a question of ‘how’ in the classical sense: but in the how in the practical sense. Knowing the messege is from God and that God is always true- to doubt would be an insult to God. She knew how children are conceived and that Gabriel was speaking about her conception as taking place before her marriage”

Your use of “she would naturally think” is where you are making your error. That natural instinct took a back seat when Gabriel confirmed

30 but the angel said to her, 'Mary, do not be afraid; you have won God’s favour.

1. She was being told she would conceive outside of her marriage with Joseph.
   The logical answer would be she thought it would be a natural conception AFTER she had “known” Joseph. You think this is illogical? Why? Where do you get any other idea?

From this among other things:

37 for nothing is impossible to God.’

What reason would this event have if all was to take place naturally as you suggest Mary must have thought it?

Peter knew instinctively he would sink in the water if he got out of the boat.
Mary and Martha knew instinctively Lazarus would have begun to decay.

I will grant Mary may not have fully understood at the very moment Gabriel said the words, but what I will not yield is that she trusted God without reservation or question from the first. She says “let it happen to me as you have said”. This implies that regardless of how the vision was to be manifested- she accepted it- unlike others.

Where do you find this said in verses 26 – 33? It isn’t! Verses 26 -33 is WHY she asks in verse 34! She had no reason to believe it would be supernatural! It isn’t until AFTER she asks that she finds out it is supernatural. It isn’t until AFTER she asks that she finds the true Father of the child is God Himself.

What are you trying to understand: at which point in the conversation she knew, or at which point in the pregnancy she knew? She had no reason to know anything until she was told. She did have reason to believe it would be supernatural. Without the visitation by Gabriel she would have had real reason to be upset when she did become pregnant before being married because she had no intention of sinning and knew God would not require her to sin.

I believe she did know instinctively that it was to be a supernatiual conception before her marriage when Gabriel told her, but even if she didn’t know at that particular moment, she knew when Elizabeth proclaimed the fruit of her womb before even telling her about the visitation. The point I get out of this is to trust God without reservation like Mary did.

 

[Tom]

Your use of “she would naturally think” is where you are making your error.

You are assuming Mary somehow knew the conception would be supernatural. I disagree. I’ll base my argument on the first part of Luke, where Zachary and Elozabeth are visited by the same angel. Was that a supernatural conception? Did Zachary or Elizabeth think it was going to be supernatural? So why would Mary?
BTW I agree all is possible.

What reason would this event have if all was to take place naturally as you suggest Mary must have thought it?

I’m so glad you asked! Notice Gabriel stops short of telling Mary who the true Father of the child is, he forces her to ask “how”. This is to show Mary was under a vow of celibacy. A woman planning on having a sexual marriage would never ask how she was to conceive. Her question of “how shall this be, since I know not man” only makes any sense if the person isn’t planning on having sexual relations. She knows “how” we all agree. She doesn’t know “how” if she’s a perpetual virgin under a vow of celibacy!

I will grant Mary may not have fully understood at the very moment Gabriel said the words, but what I will not yield is that she trusted God without reservation or question from the first. She says “let it happen to me as you have said”. This implies that regardless of how the vision was to be manifested- she accepted it- unlike others.

I agree she trusted God, no question there! She was not questioning Gods promise, but asking how a virgin would conceive. The question remains when? When would Mary think this conception would occur? You say immediately, I say she would have thought, incorrectly, that the conception would be within her marriage. I’ve explained why she would think it would occur in her marriage, to conceive outside of marriage would have been a sin. What I still haven’t heard from you is why you think Mary would have thought the conception would be outside of her marriage, in essence a sin.

She had no reason to know anything until she was told.

Absolutely! And she wasn’t told it was supernatural until AFTER she asks! Not before! She had no reason to believe the conception would not be via sexual relations with Joseph until she is told. She is told in response to her question!

She did have reason to believe it would be supernatural.

What reason? Gabriel had visited her cousin, Elizabeth was pregnant, was that conception the same as Mary? Would she have known PRIOR to being told? Keep in mind, she hadn’t the knowledge of the answers to her questions spoken of in verses 35 and on, that’s our mistake, we know what happens, when she asked she didn’t have a clue!

 

[Tom]

I believe she did know instinctively that it was to be a supernatiual conception before her marriage when Gabriel told her, but even if she didn’t know at that particular moment, she knew when Elizabeth proclaimed the fruit of her womb before even telling her about the visitation. The point I get out of this is to trust God without reservation like Mary did.

You keep throwing her trusting God, I’m not saying she didn’t, never have. Yes she trusted God. What I’m saying is there is no way she “instinctively” knew her conception would be supernatural. No way! Once she’s told, no problem with her accepting, but prior to her being told she has no way of ever even dreaming her son would be God incarnate! No way!

 

[Tom]

Your use of “she would naturally think” is where you are making your error.

Hmmm, but you think she would have “instinctively” known…

 

[Tom]

She had no reason to know anything until she was told.

My point exactly! She didn’t know it was to be a supernatural conception until she was told.
She wasn’t told until she asked.
Had she planned on having sex she would not have asked.
She asked to show you she was not planning on having sexual relations.

I’ll be gone the weekend, talk more Monday. Have a blessed weekend!

 

[Verisimilitude]

You are assuming Mary somehow knew the conception would be supernatural. I disagree. I’ll base my argument on the first part of Luke, where Zachary and Elizabeth are visited by the same angel. Was that a supernatural conception? Did Zachary or Elizabeth think it was going to be supernatural?

No, I’m confident John was conceived the human way. What do you attribute his sudden muteness and her sudden fertileness?

So why would Mary?

She stayed with them for 3 months, maybe pregnant herself by that time, leaving after John was born. It’s reasonable to assume they spoke often. Zechariah wasn’t saying much at the time though.

I’m so glad you asked! Notice Gabriel stops short of telling Mary who the true Father of the child is,** he forces her **to ask “how”. This is to show Mary was under a vow of celibacy. A woman planning on having a sexual marriage would never ask how she was to conceive. Her question of “how shall this be, since I know not man” only makes any sense if the person isn’t planning on having sexual relations. She knows “how” we all agree. She doesn’t know “how” if she’s a perpetual virgin under a vow of celibacy!

I notice Gabriel answered well her direct question and used no force. Do you forget how he answered Zechariah?

20And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time."

Her virginity was first guarded as commanded by the Law and common practice, naturally by her parents and herself until she was married. If Gabriel had not visited her and none of this took place she would have married Joseph and submitted to him as his wife. Why would you think otherwise? Jews then or now do not make vocations of celibacy.

I think it would be quite natural for her not to have relations with Joseph or any man after such an event as the birth of Jesus, and there is no doubt she was a dedicated mother. A trend setter if you will since others take such vows and hope to follow her example in being dedicated to God. This is what makes Mary Magnificent. She was fully human and pure enough to hold God even closer than Enoch could. She is an inspiration.

 

[agangbern]

Why would a woman who was about to be taken into a mans house as his wife, think an angel of God is telling her she shall commit a sin of fornication?

Of course she was not thinking that the angel was telling her to commit fornication. If she did think that the angel was telling her to commit fornication, then she would not have asked saying, “How could this be?” Precisely she asked because she thought it was simply impossible that a virgin like her would conceive that day. It was that thought of the impossibility of “now-conception” that caused her to raise that question to the angel.

 

[agangbern]

I notice Gabriel answered well her direct question and used no force. Do you forget how he answered Zechariah?

Yes, I also observed that. The angel did not use any force.

 

[agangbern]

I agree she trusted God, no question there! She was not questioning Gods promise, but asking how a virgin would conceive. The question remains when? When would Mary think this conception would occur? You say immediately, I say she would have thought, incorrectly, that the conception would be within her marriage. I’ve explained why she would think it would occur in her marriage, to conceive outside of marriage would have been a sin.

She was not asking as to “When” but as to “How”. If she was thinking that the conception would occur in the future, then she should have said, “How could this be? I shall not know any man.” But no, she did not give any hint of a thought regarding her celibate marriage. She simply said, “How shall this be done, because I* know not man**?*” She did not say, “I will not know a man”

 

[Tom]

Hope you had a good weekend.

No, I’m confident John was conceived the human way.

Gabriel does not tell Mary anything about the conception being anything but ordinary. She has Elizabeth, in her time, and Sara, (Gn 17: 21 But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this season next year."), in Scripture, to base her understanding of her conception. Mary had no reason to think her conception would be supernatural. Miraculous yes, like Elizabeth and Sara, but by ordinary sexual means.
Nothing Gabriel says, prior to her question, would cause Mary to question “how” she shall conceive.

What do you attribute his sudden muteness and her sudden fertileness?

Not relevant to Mary’s’ question but, his doubt of the word of God.

 

[Tom]

She stayed with them for 3 months, maybe pregnant herself by that time, leaving after John was born. It’s reasonable to assume they spoke often. Zechariah wasn’t saying much at the time though. I notice Gabriel answered well her direct question and used no force. Do you forget how he answered Zechariah?

What she did, or knew, AFTER her question is not the reason for her question. As you pointed out earlier she didn’t know until she was told.

 

[Tom]

Her virginity was first guarded as commanded by the Law and common practice, naturally by her parents and herself until she was married. If Gabriel had not visited her and none of this took place she would have married Joseph and submitted to him as his wife. Why would you think otherwise?

I know otherwise because of her question of how she shall conceive. A woman planning to have sex with her husband knows how she shall conceive.

 

[Tom]

Jews then or now do not make vocations of celibacy.

As I pointed out earlier, some Jews did, in fact, make vows of celibacy yet marry. I’m not saying Mary and Joseph were part of that sect, but marriage between two celibate people did exist. The book of Numbers chapter 30 gives the Laws of God on how to deal with such women under a vow of celibacy when they are taken into the household of a man as his wife.

 

[Tom]

Precisely she asked because she thought it was simply impossible that a virgin like her would conceive that day. It was that thought of the impossibility of “now-conception” that caused her to raise that question to the angel.

Gabriel does not say “this day”, he is speaking of a future event. What shall happen. There is nothing in what Gabriel says to make her feel the conception would not be normal and within her marriage to Joseph, with Joseph as the father of the child. Your idea that it she thought it must be immediate is not in Scripture PRIOR to her asking her question. There is absolutely no reason she would have thought this was going to be immediate, quite the contrary. The conception of the children of Elizabeth her cousin, and Sara (Gn) had been announced by an angel, neither had become pregnant immediately, both were normal conceptions. She had other examples from God, she was betrothed, she had no reason to believe her conception would be immediate.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Hope you had a good weekend.
Gabriel does not tell Mary anything about the conception being anything but ordinary. She has Elizabeth, in her time, and Sara, (Gn 17: 21 But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this season next year."), in Scripture, to base her understanding of her conception. Mary had no reason to think her conception would be supernatural. Miraculous yes, like Elizabeth and Sara, but by ordinary sexual means.
Nothing Gabriel says, prior to her question, would cause Mary to question “how” she shall conceive.

This is clear that it is not by natural means.

35 The angel answered, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be holy and will be called Son of God.

If a miracle is not supernatural I don’t know what is.

Not relevant to Mary’s’ question but, his doubt of the word of God.

It is relevant.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I know otherwise because of her question of how she shall conceive. A woman planning to have sex with her husband knows how she shall conceive.

You are reaching and reading into it more than aught. I don’t see the issue you are trying to make.

 

[Tom]

She was not asking as to “When” but as to “How”. If she was thinking that the conception would occur in the future, then she should have said, “How could this be? I shall not know any man.”

No, the statement “I know not man” does not ONLY infer her current condition as a virgin. It is a statement of her future condition as a virgin. Again, you’re injecting the idea that she would have thought the conception would be immediate. Had she thought, for some unknown reason, that the conception was going to be immediate, she knew she would need to have sexual relations with a man. After all that is how children are conceived, she knew that. So her question would not have been how shall this happen since I know not man, it would have been how shall this happen since I’m betrothed to Joseph.

But no, she did not give any hint of a thought regarding her celibate marriage. She simply said, “How shall this be done, because I* know not man***?” She did not say, “I will not know a man”

Her question of how shall I conceive is her statement of her celibate intentions, A woman planning on having sexual relations would not have asked how she shall conceive.

 

[Tom]

You are reaching and reading into it more than aught. I don’t see the issue you are trying to make.

The whole question is when she thought she would conceive. There is nothing in the words of the angel Gabriel, that would make her believe the conception would be immediate. Given the fact she was betrothed to Joseph, she would have believed her conception would be within her marriage.

 

[Verisimilitude]

The whole question is when she thought she would conceive. There is nothing in the words of the angel Gabriel, that would make her believe the conception would be immediate. Given the fact she was betrothed to Joseph, she would have believed her conception would be within her marriage.

If she thought it was going to be within the confines of her marriage to Joseph she would not have asked how or when, she would have just accepted the messege. You are assuming- wrongly imo, that she intended to have a celebate marriage. The Gospels do not even hint at that, yet you must hold it true to make your point.

Clearly she became pregnanat before being joined to Joseph in marriage so the question you are asking is not relevant.

I think its very clear particularly in relation to Elizabeth’s circumstance.

 

[agangbern]

Gabriel does not say “this day”, he is speaking of a future event. What shall happen. There is nothing in what Gabriel says to make her feel the conception would not be normal and within her marriage to Joseph, with Joseph as the father of the child. Your idea that it she thought it must be immediate is not in Scripture PRIOR to her asking her question. There is absolutely no reason she would have thought this was going to be immediate, quite the contrary. The conception of the children of Elizabeth her cousin, and Sara (Gn) had been announced by an angel, neither had become pregnant immediately, both were normal conceptions. She had other examples from God, she was betrothed, she had no reason to believe her conception would be immediate.

But it is clear from the reason she posed to her question. Her reason was, “I know not man”. That does not indicate a future event, as in “I shall not know man.”.
Furthermore, this fact of “now-conception” is made clear in the following translation of Luke 1:31:

“And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus.”
bsac.ac.uk/Art/S%20Nemethy/Announciation.htm