Luke 1:26 - 33

[agangbern]

Had she thought, for some unknown reason, that the conception was going to be immediate, she knew she would need to have sexual relations with a man. After all that is how children are conceived, she knew that. So her question would not have been how shall this happen since I know not man, it would have been how shall this happen since I’m betrothed to Joseph.
Her question of how shall I conceive is her statement of her celibate intentions, A woman planning on having sexual relations would not have asked how she shall conceive.

That is why she asked because as you said, “she knew she would need to have sexual relations with a man. After all that is how children are conceived, she knew that”. And sexual relations she did not have. That is why to her, conception at that time was simply impossible.

 

[Tom]

That is why she asked because as you said, “she knew she would need to have sexual relations with a man. After all that is how children are conceived, she knew that”. And sexual relations she did not have. That is why to her, conception at that time was simply impossible.

Where does Gabriel say “at that time”?
Gabriel isn’t speaking of an immediate conception, he’s speaking of a future event.
He’s telling her what shall in the future happen, not what is happening at that moment.
Her future, when Gabriel is speaking of, includes her marriage to Joseph. That’s when she thought the angel is referring.

 

[Tom]

If she thought it was going to be within the confines of her marriage to Joseph she would not have asked how or when, she would have just accepted the messege.

EXACTLY!!! That’s why her question makes no sense to a woman planning on having sex!!!

You are assuming- wrongly imo, that she intended to have a celebate marriage. The Gospels do not even hint at that, yet you must hold it true to make your point.

You answered your own argument! Her question of how this shall be only makes sense coming from a woman who did not plan on a sexual relationship! This IS where the gospels not only hints but screams her vow of perpetual virginity.
A woman planning on having sex would NOT question her child’s conception?
A woman under a vow of celibacy certainly would question her child’s conception.

Clearly she became pregnanat before being joined to Joseph in marriage so the question you are asking is not relevant.

She could not have known, at the time of her question, that the conception would be prior to being taken by Joseph. Your error is in reading the timing based on your knowledge of the results. Results Mary had no knowledge of when she asked “how”.

I think its very clear particularly in relation to Elizabeth’s circumstance.

Are you agreeing with me? Mary knew Elizabeth’s conception was a normal, sexual conception within a marriage. So you’re saying Mary would have believed the same? Good.

 

[agangbern]

Where does Gabriel say “at that time”?
Gabriel isn’t speaking of an immediate conception, he’s speaking of a future event.
He’s telling her what shall in the future happen, not what is happening at that moment.
Her future, when Gabriel is speaking of, includes her marriage to Joseph. That’s when she thought the angel is referring.

It was not Gabriel who said , “at that time”. And Mary did not say that either. What Gabriel said was this, "And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus."
And at no other time did Mama Mary reacted with a question to that announcement of Gabriel, but at that very time when Gabriel announced it. Mary reacted to it at that time. And she thought it was impossible that she would conceive (at that time.)

 

[Tom]

But it is clear from the reason she posed to her question. Her reason was, “I know not man”. That does not indicate a future event, as in “I shall not know man.”.
Furthermore, this fact of “now-conception” is made clear in the following translation of Luke 1:31:

“And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus.”
bsac.ac.uk/Art/S%20Nemethy/Announciation.htm

How? Because it says “[Luke 1:31] And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus.”
Now, in this context, means, as other translations say, “therefore”, not now as in this moment.
Again had she thought, now at this moment she knew she would need to fornicate outside of her marriage. She certainly did not believe she was being told to sin.

 

[agangbern]

How? Because it says “[Luke 1:31] And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus.”
Now, in this context, means, as other translations say, “therefore”, not now as in this moment.
Again had she thought, now at this moment she knew she would need to fornicate outside of her marriage. She certainly did not believe she was being told to sin.

Again, that is why Mama Mary asked the question of “How could this be?” because to her it was impossible that she would conceive, specially that fornication is nowhere in her mind! And specially that she knew that God would never suggest fornication. It is only you who keeps suggesting it.

 

[Tom]

Again, that is why Mama Mary asked the question of “How could this be?” because to her it was impossible that she would conceive, specially that fornication is nowhere in her mind! And specially that she knew that God would never suggest fornication. It is only you who keeps suggesting it.

She thought the conception was going to be within her marriage to Joseph, as Sara and her cousin Elizabeth, had been. The conception of each, Sara and Elizabeth, had been announced by an angel of God. Both Sara and Elizabeth conceived as a result of normal sexual relations with their husbands within the normal confines of their marriage. Now, as used in this verse, means therefore, not now as in this moment. Gabriel certainly wasn’t telling Mary she was conceiving at that moment. There is nothing in what Gabriel says to imply the conception would not be natural, within the confines of her marriage.

 

[agangbern]

She thought the conception was going to be within her marriage to Joseph, as Sara and her cousin Elizabeth, had been. The conception of each, Sara and Elizabeth, had been announced by an angel of God. Both Sara and Elizabeth conceived as a result of normal sexual relations with their husbands within the normal confines of their marriage. Now, as used in this verse, means therefore, not now as in this moment. Gabriel certainly wasn’t telling Mary she was conceiving at that moment. There is nothing in what Gabriel says to imply the conception would not be natural, within the confines of her marriage.

Elizabeth and Sarah were both married when they were informed by the angel. Clearly, their situation was different from that of Mama Mary. That is why the more that she thought it impossible that she would conceive at that time. Hence she asked, “How could this be?”

 

[Verisimilitude]

EXACTLY!!! That’s why her question makes no sense to a woman planning on having sex!!!

That is why her question does make sense. She did had every intention of a normal marriage before Gabriel visited her.

You answered your own argument! Her question of how this shall be only makes sense coming from a woman who did not plan on a sexual relationship! This IS where the gospels not only hints but screams her vow of perpetual virginity.

You still assume she planned on a celibate life in a marriage, or a celibate life regardless of being married. Why do you insist on that being the case? The Gospels do not suggest, screaming or otherwise Mary intended a celibate life before Gabriel visited her.

A woman planning on having sex would NOT question her child’s conception?
A woman under a vow of celibacy certainly would question her child’s conception.

She would have said to Gabriel ‘How can this be since I will never know a man because of my perpetual vow of celebacy.’ She was under no such vow before Gabriel visited her.

She could not have known, at the time of her question, that the conception would be prior to being taken by Joseph. Your error is in reading the timing based on your knowledge of the results. Results Mary had no knowledge of when she asked “how”.

I think Gabriels answer clarified it for her and she understood it as such which is why she said ‘let it happen to me as you have said’.

Are you agreeing with me? Mary knew Elizabeth’s conception was a normal, sexual conception within a marriage. So you’re saying Mary would have believed the same? Good.

No, I am not. Elizabeth’s conception was normal but her fertilness wasn’t. Elizabeth was barren and old; past child bearing years. Elizabeth was already married so her being pregnant by her husband is normal if not for being infertile. Mary was not married.

What I am convinced of now is that Mary did know at the time Gabriel spoke to her, where before I allowed for the possibility that she may not have immediately known clearly, but soon after she would have. I think she knew right then when she said ‘let it happen to me as you have said’, that the conception of Jesus would be prior to and independent of her marriage to Joseph. She knew because she asked. She knew because Gabriel answered. She knew because she trusted God.

 

[Tom]

Elizabeth and Sarah were both married when they were informed by the angel. Clearly, their situation was different from that of Mama Mary. That is why the more that she thought it impossible that she would conceive at that time. Hence she asked, “How could this be?”

The betrothal was part of marriage, so Mary was considered “married” at the time. Here are several different translations. None of them have the meaning of “now” as in at that time.

NAB Luke 1: 31 Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.

New Advent Luke 1: 31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus.

DR Luke 1: 1:31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus.

NJB Luke 1: 31 Look! You are to conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you must name him Jesus.

 

[Tom]

That is why her question does make sense. She did had every intention of a normal marriage before Gabriel visited her.

You’ve lost me now. You’re saying a woman who was soon to be wed, planning on having a sexual relationship with her husband, when told she would, in the future conceive, would be confused as to how she was going to conceive? I really can’t imagine a woman who was planning on having sex being confused about how her child would be conceived.

 

[Tom]

You still assume she planned on a celibate life in a marriage, or a celibate life regardless of being married. Why do you insist on that being the case? The Gospels do not suggest, screaming or otherwise Mary intended a celibate life before Gabriel visited her.

She either was under a vow of celibacy or she was not, agreed?
Let’s evaluate the two possibilities:

1. She planned on a normal sexual relationship within her marriage.
   • Told she shall conceive. Any question as to how?
2. She was under a vow of celibacy.
   • Told she shall conceive. Any question as to how?

 

[Tom]

Mary was not married.

The betrothal was part of the marriage, so Mary was in fact married, they simply hadn’t moved in together. Taken into his house as Scripture says.

 

[Tom]

What I am convinced of now is that Mary did know at the time Gabriel spoke to her, where before I allowed for the possibility that she may not have immediately known clearly, but soon after she would have. I think she knew right then when she said ‘let it happen to me as you have said’, that the conception of Jesus would be prior to and independent of her marriage to Joseph. She knew because she asked. She knew because Gabriel answered. She knew because she trusted God.

What you’re missing is she never should have needed to ask. A woman soon to be wed, planning on having a sexual relationship with her husband, told she would conceive would naturally believe the conception was within her marriage.

1. You still haven’t shown that she knew she would conceive prior to being taken into the house of Joseph. Actually we don’t know when she really did conceive.
2. You still haven’t explained why a woman about to be wed would think Gabriel was speaking of her conception prior to her being taken into her husbands house. With someone other than her husband!
3. You still haven’t explained why a woman planning on having sexual relations with her husband was confused as to how she would conceive.
4. She didn’t say ‘let it happen to me as you have said’, until AFTER she knew who the true Father of the child would be! She didn’t find out until AFTER she asked. So it doesn’t explain why she asked!

 

[Tom]

The meaning of “Now” in Luke 1:31

και conjunction
kai kahee: and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words

ιδου verb - second aorist active middle - second person singular
idou id-oo’: used as imperative lo!; – behold, lo, see.

It does not connotate a time.

 

[Tom]

To “know not man” does not restrict it to a current state.
ου particle - nominative
ou oo: no or not – + long, nay, neither, never, no (man), none, (can-)not, + nothing, + special, un(-worthy), when, + without, + yet but.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Tom,
In my first post I said you were assuming things that should not be. I think you have confirmed that.

You assume Mary was under a vow of celibacy for life before she met Joseph; when betrothed to Joseph and was to remain celibate after the marriage. You assume Gabriel forced her to ask a question. You assume Mary had no knowledge of Elizabeths miracle of fertileness, and that Mary was confused by the answer Gabriel gave her in response to how it was to take place, making you assume she was confused about when it would take place.

She asked because she was not married, not under a vow of celibacy, and not intending to fornicate before her marriage. When Gabriel told her, she knew it was to take place without Joseph before they were wed. Mary was not confused.

You are going in circles, and I went around enough times already.

 

[Tom]

Tom,
In my first post I said you were assuming things that should not be. I think you have confirmed that.

You assume Mary was under a vow of celibacy for life before she met Joseph; when betrothed to Joseph and was to remain celibate after the marriage. You assume Gabriel forced her to ask a question. You assume Mary had no knowledge of Elizabeths miracle of fertileness, and that Mary was confused by the answer Gabriel gave her in response to how it was to take place, making you assume she was confused about when it would take place.

She asked because she was not married, not under a vow of celibacy, and not intending to fornicate before her marriage. When Gabriel told her, she knew it was to take place without Joseph before they were wed. Mary was not confused.

You are going in circles, and I went around enough times already.

Let’s reduce this to one question. Which is the question I still have not heard an answer for. You say
“When Gabriel told her, she knew it was to take place without Joseph before they were wed.” The question is, how does she know it was to take place without Joseph before they were wed?

 

[Verisimilitude]

Let’s reduce this to one question. Which is the question I still have not heard an answer for. You say
“When Gabriel told her, she knew it was to take place without Joseph before they were wed.” The question is, how does she know it was to take place without Joseph before they were wed?

I have given you the answer a number of times, and so have others.

35 The angel answered, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon **you, **and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be holy and will be called Son of God.
36 And I tell you this too: your cousin Elizabeth also, in her old age, has conceived a son, and she whom people called barren is now in her sixth month,
37 for nothing is impossible to God.’

Not come upon her and Joseph, not the Son of Joseph. Just as Zechariah asked how because they were old and Elizabeth was barren, intimating John was to be from their union, Mary asked how because she was not married and would not fornicate. She had reason to ask, Zechariah didn’t.

When Mary visited them immediately after Gabriel spoke, why did John jump in the womb of Elizabeth upon hearing her voice when Mary arrived? Do you think it was because of Mary alone and the promise of the fruit of her womb, or what was already in Mary’s womb?

 

[Tom]

how does she know it was to take place without Joseph before they were wed?

The knowledge Mary had prior to asking her question in verse 34 is the following:
"NRSV:

Luke 1: 26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, 27to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28And he came to her and said, ‘Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you.’* 29But she was much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. 30The angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. 31And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David. 33He will reign over the house of Jacob for ever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.’

She then asks her question in verse 34, so no:

I have given you the answer a number of times, and so have others.

Not true, you’ve shown over and over again the knowledge she had AFTER Gabriel answered her question as if she would have known prior to her asking. Ridiculous.

35 The angel answered, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be holy and will be called Son of God. 36 And I tell you this too: your cousin Elizabeth also, in her old age, has conceived a son, and she whom people called barren is now in her sixth month, 37 for nothing is impossible to God.’

This is the response to her question! NOT the reason for it.

Not come upon her and Joseph, not the Son of Joseph. Just as Zechariah asked how because they were old and Elizabeth was barren, intimating John was to be from their union, Mary asked how because she was not married and would not fornicate. She had reason to ask, Zechariah didn’t.

How did she know all of this PRIOR to verse 34?

When Mary visited them immediately after Gabriel spoke, why did John jump in the womb of Elizabeth upon hearing her voice when Mary arrived? Do you think it was because of Mary alone and the promise of the fruit of her womb, or what was already in Mary’s womb?

And you’re saying she knew all of this before she asked her question in verse 34, impressive logic, she knew the answers already (somehow) but asked anyway! Let me ask, did she also know at that time of the prophesy spoken of Zechariah in Luke 1:67 prior to her asking how she shall conceive?