Luke 1:28 "Full of Grace" not found in KJV or NAB

[AmbroseSJ]

I didn’t know this, so Erasmus had access to Greek versions of the new testament we dont? What happened to them?

What that means is that Erasmus used a poor Greek text. Today we have better Greek texts. That is why Erasmus and even Calvin admitted the Vulgate was superior to the Greek text they were using; the Textus Receptus.

However, today even the modern Vulgate (Nova Vulgata) has been corrected using the better Greek texts and other texts (like the Dead Sea Scrolls) that have come to light.

No one today has St. Jerome’s original Vulgate. What we have (or what we used to have that was called the Clementine Vulgate,) is Jerome’s Vulgate as it survived through the many centuries of Monastic transcription. Even so, by the time of the Council of Trent, the Vulgate was in serious need of correction (which prompted the Clementine edition.) In our own time, even that edition has needed correction based on the “original languages.”

 

[porthos11]

Super, it is the 2nd edition 2011 version. I have another version too. It is the NAB St. Joseph ed. 1986. Assuming that is not as good?

Sadly, no, and primarily because of the 1991 Psalms (more than likely this is what your older edition has), which were badly translated with an excessive use of inclusive language. The 1970 Old Testament was quite good but had some irritating renderings and swapped verses around, something largely avoided in the 2011 edition. But the 2011 is an improvement overall of the 1970. The New Testament in the NABRE is the 1986 edition.

 

[NICKUSAF]

My favorite article on this subject: catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=50095

A portion of the article:
"The word that Luke uses–κεχαριτωμένη, kecharitomene–appears to have been crafted out of thin air, appearing into the Greek vocabulary as unexpectedly as the Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and as silently as the Word became Flesh. It was the word for the moment.

The word is used nowhere else in the Scriptures or in secular Greek literature. The technical name for such a novel, unique word is hapax legomenon. Hapax legomenon–which comes to us from Greek–means “expressed once.”

This sort of word is sometimes also referred to as a nonce word. In this case, it is a one-of-a-kind word for a one-of-a-kind person in a one-of-a-kind situation. No one else in human history is κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitomene).

Though a nonce word, it is not nonsensical. Grammatically, the word kecharitomene is the feminine present perfect passive voice participle of a verb, specifically, the Greek verb χαριτόω (charitóō). In the passive voice, the verb means to have been made graceful, to have been endowed with grace. "

 

[DaveBj]

My favorite article on this subject: catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=50095

A portion of the article:
"The word that Luke uses–κεχαριτωμένη, kecharitomene–appears to have been crafted out of thin air, appearing into the Greek vocabulary as unexpectedly as the Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and as silently as the Word became Flesh. It was the word for the moment.

The word is used nowhere else in the Scriptures or in secular Greek literature. The technical name for such a novel, unique word is hapax legomenon. Hapax legomenon–which comes to us from Greek–means “expressed once.”

This sort of word is sometimes also referred to as a nonce word. In this case, it is a one-of-a-kind word for a one-of-a-kind person in a one-of-a-kind situation. No one else in human history is κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitomene).

Though a nonce word, it is not nonsensical. Grammatically, the word kecharitomene is the feminine present perfect passive voice participle of a verb, specifically, the Greek verb χαριτόω (charitóō). In the passive voice, the verb means to have been made graceful, to have been endowed with grace. "

That means only that this particular form of this particular verb (and it a perfectly legitimate form of a perfectly legitimate Greek verb) is not to be found in written Greek literature that has survived to our day. Luke did not pull it out of thin air; he constructed it from known Greek vocabulary, using known grammar rules.

 

[NICKUSAF]

Guess you didn’t read the whole article.

 

[Peebo]

catholicexchange.com/mean-full-grace

 

[DaveBj]

Guess you didn’t read the whole article.

Didn’t have to; the portion you quoted was enough. I am a trained linguist and translator, and I know how languages like Greek work. The idea that a word like κεχαριτωμένη was made up out of thin air is simply wrong. It was derived from a normal Greek verb, using the normal rules of normal Greek grammar.

 

[NICKUSAF]

The rest of the article goes on to describe the word itself and what it comprises. Do you disagree with the assessment, and if so, why?

Though a nonce word, it is not nonsensical. Grammatically, the word kecharitomene is the feminine present perfect passive voice participle of a verb, specifically, the Greek verb χαριτόω (charitóō). In the passive voice, the verb means to have been made graceful, to have been endowed with grace.

The Greek verb charitóō is itself a little scarce in Scripture. Other than its unusual form in Luke 1:28, it is used by St. Paul in his epistle to the Ephesians. Here we read St. Paul use it for the redeemed sinner: “for the praise of the glory of his grace that he granted (ἐχαρίτωσεν, echaristōsen) us in the beloved.”

Here, the word charitóō is in what is known as its aorist active indicative form, obviously an entirely different form from Luke 1:28. So though the root verb (charitóō) is the same in Luke 1:28 and Ephesians 1:6, the words are used in entirely different tenses, voices, and senses. The only commonality, it seems, is sanctifying grace.

 

[Wesrock]

Didn’t have to; the portion you quoted was enough. I am a trained linguist and translator, and I know how languages like Greek work. The idea that a word like κεχαριτωμένη was made up out of thin air is simply wrong. It was derived from a normal Greek verb, using the normal rules of normal Greek grammar.

The article was just waxing poetic about the word’s scarcity. It later goes into it veing crafted from koine grammar rules.

 

[Wampa]

I have nothing of substance to add, but I just wanted to say that this entire thread is why I love this site. Great stuff. Especially posts like…

If we’re to be precise, “kecharitomene” has a root of “charitoo”; grace, and is parsed as…

and

No problem, to each his own. I’m about to defend the Douay Rheims, but do not take my defense as if…

Edit: this thread prompted me to finally donate to CAF, since it’s been years since I last did so.

 

[worldwideweary]

We’re taught Mary was full of grace and therefore did not have original sin and one place this can be found is in the CCC. CCC 490 “The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as ‘full of grace’”. 133 (Note 133: Luke 1:28)

ASIDE:
The usage of therefore here is in a sense misleading. The decree is rather supported by the scriptural passage, but it need not necessarily be contingent upon it. I mean to say that even if this phrase were not found in Luke, it wouldn’t therefore negate the ability of the See to express words regarding the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

 

[NICKUSAF]

ASIDE:
The usage of therefore here is in a sense misleading. The decree is rather supported by the scriptural passage, but it need not necessarily be contingent upon it. I mean to say that even if this phrase were not found in Luke, it wouldn’t therefore negate the ability of the See to express words regarding the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

Agreed! The idea of Mary as the new Ark is in itself an implicit indicator of her purity. Just because it is not explicitly stated doesn’t mean it isn’t true. I listened to a Protestant apologist yesterday argue that nowhere does the. Unless say Mary suffered with Christ in the cross. Seriously? Can you imagine being a parent and watching your son be tortured in front of you! That type of suffering is unimaginable to me; and it is a suffering that would have lasted for the fullness until the third day.

 

[abucs]

My replica 1611 has “Haile thou that art highly favoured . . .”. The italicization indicates words that aren’t in the Greek.

Thank you Dave.

 

[Augustine3]

why do I hear at mass the reading as “greetings highly favoured one” rather than “hail full of grace”?

 

[DaveBj]

why do I hear at mass the reading as “greetings highly favoured one” rather than “hail full of grace”?

Because that is the wording used in the Gospel translation that has been chosen for use in the Mass.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

why do I hear at mass the reading as “greetings highly favoured one” rather than “hail full of grace”?

Interestingly, in the US, where the NABRE is supposedly the Bible used in the Lectionary, we hear “Hail, full of grace!”

 

[PJM]

We’re taught Mary was full of grace and therefore did not have original sin and one place this can be found is in the CCC. CCC 490 “The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as ‘full of grace’”. 133 (Note 133: Luke 1:28)

490 references Luke 1:28. This is where I wanted to ask about the different wording found in different translations. The wording in the KJV is particularly problematic especially if we are speaking with an evangelical. I was attempting to pull the bible verses for a colleague who is not catholic in an attempt to show the Hail Mary prayer is from the bible (at least the first few sentences anyway.) However I opened my CATHOLIC bible NAB version and it does not say “full of grace” but instead “favored.” Why?

From the “Catholic Study Bible NAB Revised Edition” and KJV Luke 1:28:

NAB: “and coming to her he said ‘hail favored one the Lord is with you.’”

KJV: “And the angel came in unto her and said ‘Hail thou that art highly favored: blessed art thou among women.’” However, the KJV I have says in it’s notes “Or, graciously accepted, or much graced"”

However, the Douay Rheims online does have “full of grace.”

From DRBrg. Luke 1:28 “And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.”

Why does the Douay Rheims say “full of grace” and the NAB and KJV say “favored” or “highly favored”?

Hmmmmm,

Let’s go back a bit and look at the Latin Vulgate; the “daddy” to all bibles

The Latin Vulgate
Luke 1:28

28 et ingressus angelus ad eam dixit have gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus

And the precursor to the KJB-NT the Douay Catholic Bible

Luke 1:28

28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

NOT proclaiming “full of grace” is an aberration

GBY

 

[Augustine3]

Because that is the wording used in the Gospel translation that has been chosen for use in the Mass.

Why do they choose “favoured one” over “full of grace” at a time of worship?

 

[DaveBj]

Why do they choose “favoured one” over “full of grace” at a time of worship?

Why are you asking me? I wasn’t in on that decision-making process.

 

[Augustine3]

Why are you asking me? I wasn’t in on that decision-making process.

Never mind buddy