Luke 2:34

[martinah]

Hi,

I know someone here will be able to help me with this. I am a part of a living Rosary and this month I am doing the 4th Joyful Mystery: The Presentation. While doing my Rosary this morning I really noticed the sentence below in Luke:

“And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother. Behold this child is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted”.

Two things: 1) Wasn’t Jesus sent for the resurrection of all people in Israel?

              2) What does Simeon mean when he says Jesus is a sign which will be contradicted?

The second one has me really perplexed as I can’t understand how or why Jesus was set up to be contradicted as a sign of God’s promise made in the Old Testament. The translation I am reading is Douay-Rheims, in case someone has another translation to offer that would make this sentence clearer.

Thanks, in advance, to all those who help.
Martina

 

[Iron_Donkey]

The footnote on the online version for that verse is:

“Christ came for the salvation of all men; but here Simeon prophesies what would come to pass, that many through their own wilful blindness and obstinacy would not believe in Christ, nor receive his doctrine, which therefore would be ruin to them: but to others a resurrection, by their believing in him, and obeying his commandments.”

So both for all and for many makes sense when saying “Jesus came for ___”, depending on the sense in which it is used (offered to all, so “for all” in that sense, but not accepted by all, so “for many” in the sense that it is not necessarily true that any particular person will benefit from it).

For the other, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_contradiction. From the top of that page:

‘A sign of contradiction, in Catholic theology, is someone who, upon manifesting holiness, is subject to extreme opposition. The term is from the biblical phrase “sign that is spoken against”, found in Luke 2:34 and in Acts 28:22, which refer to Jesus Christ and the early Christians. Contradiction comes from the Latin contra, “against” and dicere, “to speak”.’

 

[TimothyH]

The Chair of Moses was to fall. The authority of the Jewish leaders was to be taken away.

The Chair of Peter was to rise. Authority - the Keys to the Kingdom - will be given to new leaders.

Read Isaiah 22, the prophecy about Shebna, the Master of the House, and the Keys of the Kingdom of David.

-Tim-

 

[jcrichton]

Hi,

I know someone here will be able to help me with this. I am a part of a living Rosary and this month I am doing the 4th Joyful Mystery: The Presentation. While doing my Rosary this morning I really noticed the sentence below in Luke:

“And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother. Behold this child is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted”.

Two things: 1) Wasn’t Jesus sent for the resurrection of all people in Israel?

              2) What does Simeon mean when he says Jesus is a sign which will be contradicted?

The second one has me really perplexed as I can’t understand how or why Jesus was set up to be contradicted as a sign of God’s promise made in the Old Testament. The translation I am reading is Douay-Rheims, in case someone has another translation to offer that would make this sentence clearer.

Thanks, in advance, to all those who help.
Martina

Hi, Martina!

…lets take the last one first:

Catholics, well those who are still Faithful to the Church’s Teaching, believe that Christ Himself is received as we consume the Eucharistic Host… most other non-Catholic Christian have a variation of beliefs (from symbolic, rememberence, somewhat important, Catholics keep crucifying Christ…); but this is not new (St. John 6) Jesus was followed by many who at that particular revelation (eat My Body and drink My Blood) decided that they knew better than to follow Him; at Christ’s Birth (after the Incarnation) we find several layers of Believers: those who truly were awaiting the Messiah, in God’s terms, and those whose interests were to acquire a Messiah that would fulfill their aspirations and desires… a very distinct few accepted God’s Call and sought the King of the Jews to pay homage and honors while others wanted to exterminate Him; at twelve Jesus reveals some of His Wisdom as He engages the religious at the Temple and claims God as His Father; during His Ministry many seek Him for temporal goods, others for temporal powers, still others seek to kill Him; He turns Judaism on its head as He demonstrate that those dispensing the Law have been straying from God’s Commandments and have been leading the poeple away from God’s Justice and Mercy; demons easily confess that He is the Just One of God while religious elite disown Him: both recognized that He is God yet both reject His Authority–not much has change since then, right?..

…as for the first… no, Jesus did not come to forcefully save all of Israel (or manking); rather He came to offer Salvation to all:

14 as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up 15 so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. 16 For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. 17 For God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but so that through him the world might be saved. 18 No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God’s only Son. 19 And the judgement is this: though the light has come into the world people have preferred darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. 20 And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, to prevent his actions from being shown up; 21 but whoever does the truth comes out into the light, so that what he is doing may plainly appear as done in God.’ (St. John 3:14-21)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[PJM]

Hi,

I know someone here will be able to help me with this. I am a part of a living Rosary and this month I am doing the 4th Joyful Mystery: The Presentation. While doing my Rosary this morning I really noticed the sentence below in Luke:

“And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother. Behold this child is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted”.

Two things: 1) Wasn’t Jesus sent for the resurrection of all people in Israel?

That dear friend was God’s HOPE; BUT NOT His expectation; knowing humanity that He CREATED with a mind, intellect and freewill can [and MANY would] choose to hate God; not accept, acknowldge and love Him…

1. What does Simeon mean when he says Jesus is a sign which will be contradicted?

Jesus tells us thet “He ALONE” is the Way; the [singular] Truth and the Life" John 14:6

The second one has me really perplexed as I can’t understand how or why Jesus was set up to be contradicted as a sign of God’s promise made in the Old Testament. The translation I am reading is Douay-Rheims, in case someone has another translation to offer that would make this sentence clearer.

While “Redemption” is NOW an accomplised FACT for all humanity; past, present and future; SALVATION depends on a series of “Yes God” decisions that each of us must make.

Jesus Himself warns:

Matthew 20:16 “So shall the last be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”

Salvation beging with God and in order to end WITH gOD must INCLUDE AT LEAST all OF THE FOLLOWING:

GRACE WHICH ALONE CAN LEAD TO TRUE FAITH

BAPTISM

OBEDIENCE TO ALL OF THE COMMANDMENTS [meaning one cannot die with unconfessed / unforgivre mortal sins [1st. John 5:16-17 and John 20:19-23] which affirms that sins is ONLY forgive in the manner perscribed and Commanded by Christ

WORKS OF CHARITY which alone mean nothing BUT are essentail to PROVE our Love of and for God.

Your understanding is incomplete: Christ is “set up” to DO THE FATHERS WILL [also His own] and because MANY will freely choose NOT to; Christ therefore and thereby become the “stumblinf block.” NOT by HIS Choice, NOT by the Fathers Choice BUT rather by our own choices.

Thanks, in advance, to all those who help.
Martina

My friend hope this clarifies it for you.

pat/PJM

 

[R_C]

In the Scriptures, many is not an exclusive term. However, all would be incorrect: because out of their own free choice, not all are saved - some reject salvation and are damned.

The Lord said in the Last Supper, at the institution of the Holy Eucharist: “for you and for many”. There is no upper limit on the amount of “many”!

There is a significant difference when in 2 Cor 5:14-15 and Rm 5:18 we find, instead, “all”:

For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

So, as through one offense, there resulted condemnation to all men, so also, through one righteous deed, there resulted justification of life to all men.

The difference, then, is in the free will that will allow some to bring condemnation upon themselves, despite God’s clear desire to save everyone:

This pleases God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

So yes: the Lord came for all, but not all will benefit from his coming - which is what the prophet goes on to explain to the Blessed Virgin:

the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed

And the evangelist s. John reminds us of the words of our Lord:

He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged …] this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

As a final note: notice how the prophet said “for the fall *and *the resurrection”, not " or the resurrection"…because indeed He came for the resurrection of all (Jn 5:24-29):

for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

The reference to the “sign of contradiction” is addressed, among other places, in this section of the Catechism. We may also see in this a prophesy of what the Lord would later reveal openly to His apostles:

If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. …] But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: “They hated me without reason.”

*Contradict *(from the Latin “contra-dicere”) is “to say something contrary of to what others have said, or to respond to the affirmations and the opinions of others by proving them wrong.” (Vocabolario Etimologico di Ottorino Pianigiani, 1907) From the Gospels, we see how Christ became a true sign of contradiction by proving everyone wrong in that God’s love and mercy were far greater than any human could conceive - the utmost contradiction being the fact that by His death He gave us all eternal life!

 

[martinah]

The footnote on the online version for that verse is:

“Christ came for the salvation of all men; but here Simeon prophesies what would come to pass, that many through their own wilful blindness and obstinacy would not believe in Christ, nor receive his doctrine, which therefore would be ruin to them: but to others a resurrection, by their believing in him, and obeying his commandments.”

So both for all and for many makes sense when saying “Jesus came for ___”, depending on the sense in which it is used (offered to all, so “for all” in that sense, but not accepted by all, so “for many” in the sense that it is not necessarily true that any particular person will benefit from it).

For the other, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_contradiction. From the top of that page:

‘A sign of contradiction, in Catholic theology, is someone who, upon manifesting holiness, is subject to extreme opposition. The term is from the biblical phrase “sign that is spoken against”, found in Luke 2:34 and in Acts 28:22, which refer to Jesus Christ and the early Christians. Contradiction comes from the Latin contra, “against” and dicere, “to speak”.’

’
Thank-you Iron Donkey. I was reading too literally I think and didn’t see Simeon’s words as a prediction of the on-going duality of Jesus. He is both a human sent to do great things but is also God who understands the true nature of those he has created. He came for all but knew not all would accept–some would even violently reject him.

God Bless,
Martina

 

[martinah]

The Chair of Moses was to fall. The authority of the Jewish leaders was to be taken away.

The Chair of Peter was to rise. Authority - the Keys to the Kingdom - will be given to new leaders.

Read Isaiah 22, the prophecy about Shebna, the Master of the House, and the Keys of the Kingdom of David.

-Tim-

Thank-you Tim. The historical context really helps. I also saw the reference to the fall as being related to the original “fall of man” with Adam and Eve, then God’s Covenant with Moses. To go a step further as you have to reference the Fall of the Chair of Moses to the passing of authority to Peter is excellent and very helpful. To be honest, I misunderstood and missed that reference in my reading of this sentence, as my view of Jesus is of one that respects Jewish tradition and Moses but moves God’s will a step further in accordance to prophesy. However, I do see now, from a historical perspective, that Jesus over threw the authority of the house of Moses and that it was from this upset in authority he met his most vehement opposition.

God Bless,
Martina

 

[martinah]

Hi, Martina!

…lets take the last one first:

Catholics, well those who are still Faithful to the Church’s Teaching, believe that Christ Himself is received as we consume the Eucharistic Host… most other non-Catholic Christian have a variation of beliefs (from symbolic, rememberence, somewhat important, Catholics keep crucifying Christ…); but this is not new (St. John 6) Jesus was followed by many who at that particular revelation (eat My Body and drink My Blood) decided that they knew better than to follow Him; at Christ’s Birth (after the Incarnation) we find several layers of Believers: those who truly were awaiting the Messiah, in God’s terms, and those whose interests were to acquire a Messiah that would fulfill their aspirations and desires… a very distinct few accepted God’s Call and sought the King of the Jews to pay homage and honors while others wanted to exterminate Him; at twelve Jesus reveals some of His Wisdom as He engages the religious at the Temple and claims God as His Father; during His Ministry many seek Him for temporal goods, others for temporal powers, still others seek to kill Him; He turns Judaism on its head as He demonstrate that those dispensing the Law have been straying from God’s Commandments and have been leading the poeple away from God’s Justice and Mercy; demons easily confess that He is the Just One of God while religious elite disown Him: both recognized that He is God yet both reject His Authority–not much has change since then, right?..

…as for the first… no, Jesus did not come to forcefully save all of Israel (or manking); rather He came to offer Salvation to all:

Maran atha!

Angel

Thank-you Angel. You have added nicely to the historical perspective Tim provided and have shown that through out his life, Jesus was received in many different ways: Outright acceptance, partial acceptance, and total rejection. He was also sought out by many for their own motives: to be saved and to be realigned with God’s promise to the Chosen people, others sought him out as a God that was “made in their image” instead of the other way around, others sought him out to destroy him. The as a “sign to be contradicted” part of the original quote is really starting to make sense now.

God Bless,
Martina

 

[martinah]

Hi,

Thank-you Pat. You are absolutely correct it is God’s hope we will chose him, but he won’t force us. I was, again, being too literal in my reading. God comes down to earth to fulfill his promise (because he is perfect) so that we can know his will and follow. Of course, from my perspective it’s God, so following seems like a good idea. Not having the mind of God, I fail to remember sometimes that he knows our flaws and gave us free-will to choose them or choose Him. So He anticipates that some will not follow and that Jesus’ presence, to many, is a compelling of their free-will to choose The Way or their own way.

God Bless,
Martina

 

[martinah]

In the Scriptures, many is not an exclusive term. However, all would be incorrect: because out of their own free choice, not all are saved - some reject salvation and are damned.

The Lord said in the Last Supper, at the institution of the Holy Eucharist: “for you and for many”. There is no upper limit on the amount of “many”!

There is a significant difference when in 2 Cor 5:14-15 and Rm 5:18 we find, instead, “all”:

The difference, then, is in the free will that will allow some to bring condemnation upon themselves, despite God’s clear desire to save everyone:

So yes: the Lord came for all, but not all will benefit from his coming - which is what the prophet goes on to explain to the Blessed Virgin:

And the evangelist s. John reminds us of the words of our Lord:

As a final note: notice how the prophet said “for the fall *and *the resurrection”, not " or the resurrection"…because indeed He came for the resurrection of all (Jn 5:24-29):

The reference to the “sign of contradiction” is addressed, among other places, in this section of the Catechism. We may also see in this a prophesy of what the Lord would later reveal openly to His apostles:

*Contradict *(from the Latin “contra-dicere”) is “to say something contrary of to what others have said, or to respond to the affirmations and the opinions of others by proving them wrong.” (Vocabolario Etimologico di Ottorino Pianigiani, 1907) From the Gospels, we see how Christ became a true sign of contradiction by proving everyone wrong in that God’s love and mercy were far greater than any human could conceive - the utmost contradiction being the fact that by His death He gave us all eternal life!

Thank-you R_C. Your quotes have definitely helped with putting Jesus as a sign of contradiction in perspective. Reminding me of the words spoken at the first Eucharist makes it clear that Jesus intended to institute the Eucharist for those that witnessed him and the MANY who would believe. Here he clearly has an understanding of those God created. And I appreciate you pointing out that MANY isn’t exclusive as it has no upper limit, but reflects God’s understanding once again. You also pointed out correctly that Jesus came for the Fall AND the Resurrection. That the one act that led to damnation of all was put right by one act of righteousness by one because God is merciful and came for all of us, but all of us will not follow because of our own will. This is, of course, summed up well in John 3:16–the key to our faith! In that very quote, it stipulates that it is “whoever so believeth”, once again acknowledging God’s awareness of our flaws. You also provide a lot of help with the “sign of contradiction”. I will be reading the part of the CCC that you referenced this weekend. I appreciate you reminding me that the it is by the fact that he endures so much for others and that by His death we get eternal life, that Jesus proves to be the most profound sign of contradiction solely to illustrate the scope of God’s mercy. I will admit that I saw the word “contradict” and associated it solely with a negative perspective, but you have provided another view of Jesus’ contraction that is about Mercy and forgiveness. That is really helpful.

God Bless,
Martina