Luke 9:23

[starnesw]

While reading today, I came across a particular scripture verse that I’d like some (name removed by moderator)ut on. In Luke 9:23, Jesus is quoted as saying “take up your cross and follow me.”

This verse takes place prior to the crucifixion. Is the author here projecting the crucifixion backwards into scripture here, or is there something else going on?

I am aware that crucifixion was a known thing, but it was usually reserved for criminals of the worst kind. Certainly nobody expected Jesus to wind up on a cross at this point in His ministry.

Thanks, in advance, for your insight.

God Bless,
William

 

[Phyllo]

While reading today, I came across a particular scripture verse that I’d like some (name removed by moderator)ut on. In Luke 9:23, Jesus is quoted as saying “take up your cross and follow me.”

This verse takes place prior to the crucifixion. Is the author here projecting the crucifixion backwards into scripture here, or is there something else going on?

I am aware that crucifixion was a known thing, but it was usually reserved for criminals of the worst kind. Certainly nobody expected Jesus to wind up on a cross at this point in His ministry.

Thanks, in advance, for your insight.

God Bless,
William

1435 Conversion is accomplished in daily life by gestures of reconciliation, concern for the poor, the exercise and defense of justice and right, by the admission of faults to one’s brethren, fraternal correction, revision of life, examination of conscience, spiritual direction, acceptance of suffering, endurance of persecution for the sake of righteousness. Taking up one’s cross each day and following Jesus is the surest way of penance.

Not my insight but a paragraph from the CCC. I hope this helps you a little.

 

[jpjd]

(A similar passage is in Mark 8:34, also.) In the on-line NAB version, the preceeding passage is under the subtitle called The First Prediction of the Passion.

It is not correct to say that “the author here projecting the crucifixion backwards into scripture” because these are not the writings of the author, but the words of Jesus himself. Jesus must have known his fate and was alluding to it with his words.

 

[DexUK]

Considering that crucifixion was a well known horrendous punishment at that time and that those sentenced to it would have been known to have to carry the means of their own execution to their final destination, it’s entirely reasonable that Our Lord would have expressed himself in such terms, whether or not such words would have had a prophetic meaning in hindsight.

 

[Telstar]

I think it’s obvious that Jesus knew very well the way He would die. When He was praying in the Garden the night before, He was terrified at the thought of everything He would have to suffer for our sins. He gave hints to the Apostles about it, but they really didn’t understand them at the time. They probably thought He was just using it as an analogy of the daily pains and misery that all men face on a daily basis, by comparing them to a type of crucifixion. But, I doubt they realized that He was, literally, referring to His own crucifixion at the time. I’m sure those words came back to them with a much clearer meaning after it happened, though.

 

[bmullins]

It was likely an idiom of the times. Where as I am sure Jesus also knew he was going to go to the crucifixion, the meaning also had to have some meaning to the people who heard it. If not, they would have all been confused and asked, “what does this mean? You keep saying take up your cross.”

As it was a common, cruel and very public execution there would be no doubt in the minds of those hearing it that Jesus meant that following him is no easy task. That following him would be like ‘taking up a cross’. It would have conjured a very difficult imagine in their mind, a warning that the life of a disciple of Christ was much more difficult than they were used to.

 

[starnesw]

Thank you for all of your replies. I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Honestly, I can see the reading as a prediction from Christ of his future on the cross and the significance of it was recalled after the fact and re-told in the Gospel. I can also see a situation where the words could have been put in Christ’s mouth by the author of Luke to communicate the overall message of Christ - keeping in mind that the writers of the day were not concerned with historical accuracy as much as communicating ultimate truth.

Still, you have provided much food for thought and prayer.

Have a Blessed Day!
William

 

[bmullins]

I finally got home and had some time to flip through my Ignatius Study Bible and just wanted to share the following:

take his cross: A striking image of the demands and consequences of discipleship. Jews needed no explanation of it, since the Romans utilized crucifixion as a torturous means of execution for many criminals during the NT times. Jesus here assures us that faithfulness will entail self denial, suffering, and possibly death. Before his Passion, the cross symbolized shame and rejection; afterward it symbolizes the glory of Christian martyrdom. (CCC 1506)

 

[grandfather]

The catechism says that through baptism we become sharers with Christ in His threefold office of priest, prophet and king. It the Old Testament God says through prophets that He will raise up for Himself a nation of priests, in another place, a priestly people, a royal priesthood. Jesus is called the eternal high priest, this title indicating that there are other priests of some lower nature.

The early fathers of the Church said the foretold priestly people are all the baptized.

What makes any priest of any religion a priest is the offering of sacrifice. The sacrifice Jesus offers is Himself on the Cross, His own life for others. The concept goes back to Cain and Abel in the Bible where we see both acceptable and unacceptable sacrifice. This is again reflected in the Biblical account of Elijah in the contest with the priests of Baal where fire comes down from heaven to consume Elijah’s offering signifying it was acceptable sacrifice.

The Jewish miracle of Hannukah is about the oil in the temple lamps not running out. Why was this important? The fire come down from heaven to consume Elijah’s sacrifice was kept burning and used to burn the temple sacrifices and that is how the Jews knew their ongoing daily sacrifices were acceptable in the temple. If the fire went out they would need fire to again fall from heaven to be able to offer acceptable sacrifice.

At Pentecost tongues of fire came down from heaven and rested above everyone in the room. Why? What did that mean? It meant they were acceptable sacrifice, the beginning of the priestly people of God.

Jesus tells us to take up an instrument of torture, suffering and death, the cross, and follow Him. If we refuse He tells us we are unworthy of being called His disciples (followers). That is quite a demand, quite a price to pay if you want to be called a follower of Christ. Augustine writes that it is the cup of medicine no one would dare put to his lips unless the physician first drank it to the dregs.

If all the baptized are included in this foretold priestly people, nation of priests, royal priesthood, that means they all must offer some sacrifice and as with all sacrifice it is either acceptable or unacceptable. He tells us to take up the cross and follow, immitate Him, indicating the sacrifice we offer is ourselves, our lives, our sufferings of every kind, physical illness, mental anquish and sorrow, poverty and hunger, pain, mockery, injustice and everything Jesus suffered in His own passion. He and His priestly people become sacrifice and through this we become like Him.

We are told that in baptism we are baptized into His death. He shares our death, the sentence given to Adam and Eve for their sin against God. His death on the cross through self sacrifice is for the redemption of the world. He incorporates the suffering and death of His priestly people into His sacrifice and offers it all to the Father for the same purpose. We become sharers with Christ in His office of priest through our crosses of sacrifce.

The place the sacrifice is made is the Mass where Calvary become re presented. We are there with Mary at the foot of the cross when we are at Mass. That is where you offer Christ all of your suffering to be joined to His for the same purpose as His and it all becomes one with His, acceptable to the Father.

(continued)

 

[grandfather]

Simeon told Mary that her heart would also be pierced with the sword of sorrow. Jesus Sacred Heart was pierced with the lance of Longinus who later became a bishop. Mary’s heart was pierced as she witnessed her Son’s passion and death. This is where the Catholic piety about the “two hearts” comes from. She shared in the pain with Him. We share in the pain of others in a similar way, and in Mary’s pain when we are there with her at calvary, at Mass.

God the Father is infinite and loved His Son with infinite love. God is love. Mary is a finite human creature. She is not capable of infinite anytihng. She can only love her Son or you to the capacity of human limitation. Saint John writes that the love of God consists in this, that we keep His commandments. Mary was sinless. She kept the commandments perfectly, loved God perfectly.

In addition to telling us to take up an instrument of torture suffering and death He tells us another confounding thing, “Be holy, even as your heavenly Father is holy”, be as holy as God. Another perfectly good translation is, “Be perfect, even as your…”

We are sinners. We do not love God as perfectly as we should, or in perfect holiness. Mary does and her immaculate heart is pierced also with the Sacred Heart of Jesus at the cross. Her cross is her Son’s cross. Their hearts are one. He looked down and saw His mother in her agony as she watched Him tortured to death, sweating, panting, bleeding, gasping.

He accepts her tears and pierced heart and offers it with His to the Father for the redemption of the world. He accepts your tears, pain, sorrow of every kind, your crosses, in the same way for the same purpose, His purpose.

If you want to love Jesus as much as humanly possible, this is where the saying comes from, love Jesus with the heart of Mary, His mother’s heart.

Paul writes in Collosians that he makes up in the suffering of his own flesh that which is lacking in the suffering of Christ, for the sake of the Church. Christ’s sacrifice is super abundant. But He invites us to be sharers with Him in His work of redemption by taking up our crosses. If you are part of the priestly people, a priest in some sense, you must offer some acceptable sacrifice and it is all of the suffering in your life and your death. That is what God wants of you, from you.

This not only makes you worthy to be called His disciple, it makes you one with Him and His holy mother, in heart, a sharer in purpose. Your tears and pain and suffering, crosses, joined to theirs makes you priestly people acceptable to God.

What Jesus wants of us is our tears, our wounds, our broken hearts, our sorrow and our sins. That is our offering. He joins it to His and offers it to the Father who accepts it.

 

[starnesw]

WOW! What a great exposition!

I’m grateful that you took the time to write all of that and explain what you did. It all makes sense as written, so Thank You!

I guess my actual question was a reflection of the fact that the “take up your cross” in scripture would have had no meaning to the people who heard that saying until after the crucifixion took place. Therefore, it appears to be out of place in that segment of scripture UNLESS one accepts that Jesus meant for it not to be understood until that later time. That would be an acceptable solution to the “misplaced quote” (my words) and makes theological sense as well.

When reading it for the first time however, I did not read it as such. I looked at it as a possible theological point being made by the author - who obviously would have been fully aware of the cross at the time the Gospel was penned. In fact, he (they) would have had a fairly developed understanding of the theology of the cross by that time.

In other words, it was not so much a question of the meaning of the cross, which I understand, as much as it was a question of the placement of that line within the scripture. I hope I explained that well.

At any rate… I do thank all of you for your replies. I now have additional resources at my disposal to reference and will take your points in along with the commentaries that I have.

God Bless!

William

 

[rom422]

I guess my actual question was a reflection of the fact that the “take up your cross” in scripture would have had no meaning to the people who heard that saying until after the crucifixion took place. Therefore, it appears to be out of place in that segment of scripture UNLESS one accepts that Jesus meant for it not to be understood until that later time. That would be an acceptable solution to the “misplaced quote” (my words) and makes theological sense as well.

But it is not true that the phrase “take up your cross” would have no meaning for the Jews until after Christ’s crucifixion. I think that Bmullins was right in saying that, at the time Christ made that statement, the Jews were already familiar with the horrors of the crucifixion, because the Romans used it then as a method for executing criminals. So, when Christ said, “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily, and follow me,” His listeners - who had no idea about His future cross - understood that He was talking about their cross, or the trials that they would have to endure by becoming His disciples. It was like saying: “If you want to be my disciple, then assume the sufferings and inconveniences that your being my disciple would entail.”

I agree that Christ’s words became even more meaningful after His crucifixion. But I don’t think that it was a misplaced quote. These were Christ’s words, not St. Luke’s reflection of Christ’s life. I don’t think that St. Luke would put words in our Lord’s mouth that He did not actually say just to fit his theology. If Christ said these words before His crucifixion, then the quote is exactly where it should be.

Just my 2 cents also.

 

[grandfather]

!

]I guess my actual question was a reflection of the fact that the “take up your cross” in scripture would have had no meaning to the people who heard that saying until after the crucifixion took place. Therefore, it appears to be out of place in that segment of scripture UNLESS one accepts that Jesus meant for it not to be understood until that later time.

When reading it for the first time however, I did not read it as such. I looked at it as a possible theological point being made by the author - who obviously would have been fully aware of the cross at the time the Gospel was penned. In fact, he (they) would have had a fairly developed understanding of the theology of the cross by that time.

This is really simple. Jesus knew the kind of death that awaited Him. He referred to it more than once. He did it again here. He also said things, hard sayings, on purpose to make His listeners wonder about the meaning. I am the bread come down from heaven. My flesh is real food. My blood is real drink.

If there was any question in anyone’s mind what He was asking His followers to do it was answered when He was crucified. Why even wonder if the quote was misplaced?

The cross was a scandal. It is a mystery. Mohamed made up a s story that Jesus was not crucified, but someone who looked like Him was crucified, because God would never allow a prophet to suffer such humiliation. The Christian religion understands humility as the mother of all virtues, primarily due to the fact of the crucifixion, God showing the way to destroy pride, the first sin.

 

[Michael19682]

But it is not true that the phrase “take up your cross” would have no meaning for the Jews until after Christ’s crucifixion. I think that Bmullins was right in saying that, at the time Christ made that statement, the Jews were already familiar with the horrors of the crucifixion, because the Romans used it then as a method for executing criminals. So, when Christ said, “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily, and follow me,” His listeners - who had no idea about His future cross - understood that He was talking about their cross, or the trials that they would have to endure by becoming His disciples. It was like saying: “If you want to be my disciple, then assume the sufferings and inconveniences that your being my disciple would entail.”

I agree that Christ’s words became even more meaningful after His crucifixion. But I don’t think that it was a misplaced quote. These were Christ’s words, not St. Luke’s reflection of Christ’s life. I don’t think that St. Luke would put words in our Lord’s mouth that He did not actually say just to fit his theology. If Christ said these words before His crucifixion, then the quote is exactly where it should be.

Just my 2 cents also.

I concur with you rom, and with bmullins wholeheartedly. I too have often considered the significance of Jesus’ taking the disciples in private and saying such things as “to you the mysteries of the kingdom have been revealed, but to the others it comes in parables”. This Lucan saying of Jesus we are discussing was spoken not only while he and the disciples were in solitude, but while Jesus was praying in solitude. Today, we pray to discern the will of God in any matter which troubles us. John reveals what Jesus said was the will of God: “And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day.” In the same chapter of Luke we read that Peter was rebuked and warned to not reveal Jesus was the Messiah of God. The conclusion I draw from this - and I hope it is the holy Spirit working with me - is that Jesus, who always knows the will of God, was always carrying out that will. He seems to have been speaking as if protecting the time of his own death, which “time had not yet come” (a phrase of one of the evangelists), as well as the life of Peter and any of the disciples who might accidentally reveal a truth that could get that person injured. In other words, his own work hadn’t been accomplished, so he was protecting all that God gave him. The chapter might be seen as supporting this view: John the Baptist was killed because he knew it. Jesus was also asked what the work of God is, very near in time to his rebuking Peter. He said it is to believe in the one whom he sent. To me it seems as if this might have been interpreted by the disciples that spreading the word that the Messiah had come was what they should all be doing. Who knows? His saying about the cross could be a correction of that misinterpretation. Heaven knows we have all likely been confronted with those who think discipleship consists of merely proclaiming Jesus’ historical mission and the fact that he was Messiah. Yet to be fair to the fundamentalist, if doing such brings a cross upon the person and if they carry that cross, then perhaps they are indeed following the condition of discipleship?

Of further consideration is that in this chapter of Luke Jesus asks his question while he was praying. It seems as if he was, in carrying out the will of God, asking what the disciples thought - implying that their actions and thoughts were intimately bound with God’s will that he not lose any of what God gave him. It doesn’t say he broke with prayer to ask them, but “while he was praying.” When one prays it is to hear the word and will of God. It seems that Peter spoke it quite accurately. The quote shows how close one can become to God in discipleship of Jesus.

 

[Nita]

While reading today, I came across a particular scripture verse that I’d like some (name removed by moderator)ut on. In Luke 9:23, Jesus is quoted as saying “take up your cross and follow me.”

This verse takes place prior to the crucifixion. Is the author here projecting the crucifixion backwards into scripture here, or is there something else going on?

I am aware that crucifixion was a known thing, but it was usually reserved for criminals of the worst kind. Certainly nobody expected Jesus to wind up on a cross at this point in His ministry.

Thanks, in advance, for your insight.

God Bless,
William

If you read the verse just before Lk. 9:23, you’ll see that Jesus had just told them He must be “killed”. Altho the evangelist does not include the specific manner, it’s possible Jesus did mention it.
*Lk 9:22 saying “The Son of man must suffer …and be killed, and on the third day be raised.” (also Mt. 16:13) *

At a later point in Scripture, as Jesus again was telling the apostles about His upcoming death, the Scripture wording in Matthew includes the word “crucified”. (Luke however does not in his later passage - Luke 18:33)
*Mt. 20:18-19 …will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to be mocked and scourged and crucified, … *

 

[AlanFromWichita]

While reading today, I came across a particular scripture verse that I’d like some (name removed by moderator)ut on. In Luke 9:23, Jesus is quoted as saying “take up your cross and follow me.”

This verse takes place prior to the crucifixion. Is the author here projecting the crucifixion backwards into scripture here, or is there something else going on?

I am aware that crucifixion was a known thing, but it was usually reserved for criminals of the worst kind. Certainly nobody expected Jesus to wind up on a cross at this point in His ministry.

As others have said, “cross” was known already. Not Jesus did not say “take up my cross,” but “take up your cross.” So it isn’t our job to be Simon the Cyrene, but to carry our own crosses.

But our own crosses aren’t necessarily the road to physical suffering like they were Jesus. That’s his cross. Our may or may not have the feature of suffering because we tend to think of the cross identically as a device through which we suffer. That is an unfortunate view of it that actually removes the power from the cross because we are presuming to tie God’s hands. The advantage to the cross is not that it makes us suffer, but that it represents a way toward unity with God. So it may not be perceived as suffering at all; in fact if we let Him help and guide us, He tells us that His yoke is easy, and His burden light. Suffering may be so subtle that the human mind may not categorize it as so. Whether your cross ends up in physical suffering or not, it is the symbol of our willingness to admit our faults and be responsible for the effects of them.

Or I could be totally wrong.

Alan

 

[bmullins]

As others have said, “cross” was known already. Not Jesus did not say “take up my cross,” but “take up your cross.” So it isn’t our job to be Simon the Cyrene, but to carry our own crosses.

I disagree. It is our job to carry our own cross as much as we can. But it’s also our job as a community to step in and be compelled, just as Simon was compelled, to carry the cross of others. I believe that is the point. If Jesus in his earthly body was unable to carry the cross all the way to the finish line, then we should not be ashamed if our cross becomes too much to bear. And all of those around us should be compelled by God himself (our authority, just as the Roman’s were the earthly authority over Simon, God is our spiritual authority) to reach out and lift the cross and carry it with or for them.

We are a community, not just a believer.

 

[Nita]

I think it’s very important to remember the second clause in Jesus’ instruction – “Take up your cross AND follow Me”. To “follow” Him would mean to do the same thing with our cross that He did with His. Jesus “took up His cross” AND then offered it up to the Father for the salvation of souls. I think He is telling us to do the same. When crosses (pain/discomfort, suffering of any kind, death) come to us, we also can/should accept it and offer it up for the salvation of souls.
We should never waste pain. Our Lord has turned it into a means to bring about good.

(I don’t mean that no steps are to be taken to cure or alleviate pain, but when there is no remedy for it, we should accept it as God’s will. Jesus prayed to have His “cup” taken away, but He sought the Father’s will over His preference.)

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I disagree. It is our job to carry our own cross as much as we can. But it’s also our job as a community to step in and be compelled, just as Simon was compelled, to carry the cross of others. I believe that is the point. If Jesus in his earthly body was unable to carry the cross all the way to the finish line, then we should not be ashamed if our cross becomes too much to bear. And all of those around us should be compelled by God himself (our authority, just as the Roman’s were the earthly authority over Simon, God is our spiritual authority) to reach out and lift the cross and carry it with or for them.

We are a community, not just a believer.

I agree with everything here except the first sentence. I’m not sure how it is that you disagree with me.

I remember at a school band of america/chorus of america weekend of music, before each meal all band and chorus members would sing in three part harmony, “No Man is an Island.”

No Man is an Island

No man is an island, no man stands alone
Each man’s joy is joy to me
Each man’s grief is my own
We need one another, so I will defend
Each man as my brother
Each man as my friend

No man is an island far out in the blue
We all look to One above
Who our strength doth renew
When I help my brother
Then I know that I plant the seeds
Of friends that will never die

I saw the people gather
I heard the music start
The song that they were singing
Is ringing in my heart

No man is an island, no man stands alone
Each man’s joy is joy to me
Each man’s grief is my own
We need one another, so I will defend
Each man as my brother
Each man as my friend

I think it’s very important to remember the second clause in Jesus’ instruction – “Take up your cross AND follow Me”. To “follow” Him would mean to do the same thing with our cross that He did with His. Jesus “took up His cross” AND then offered it up to the Father for the salvation of souls. I think He is telling us to do the same. When crosses (pain/discomfort, suffering of any kind, death) come to us, we also can/should accept it and offer it up for the salvation of souls.
We should never waste pain. Our Lord has turned it into a means to bring about good.

(I don’t mean that no steps are to be taken to cure or alleviate pain, but when there is no remedy for it, we should accept it as God’s will. Jesus prayed to have His “cup” taken away, but He sought the Father’s will over His preference.)

Excellent point. He will show us the way to take our Cross if only we have enough trust and courage to do so. Still He already bore His, so it is our own and not His that we are carrying in the way He carried His.

Alan

 

[Michael19682]

I disagree. It is our job to carry our own cross as much as we can. But it’s also our job as a community to step in and be compelled, just as Simon was compelled, to carry the cross of others. I believe that is the point. If Jesus in his earthly body was unable to carry the cross all the way to the finish line, then we should not be ashamed if our cross becomes too much to bear. And all of those around us should be compelled by God himself (our authority, just as the Roman’s were the earthly authority over Simon, God is our spiritual authority) to reach out and lift the cross and carry it with or for them.

We are a community, not just a believer.

Matthew and Mark say “they”, in apparent reference to the roman soldiers. Luke and John, as I read the gospel, are not conclusive as to who pressed Simon the Cyrene into service. The Roman’s were not exactly an earthly auhority? As I read the New American Bible of the Catholic Church, Jesus gives their authority to God. We can only offer it up.

Peace-