Luke 9:23

[bmullins]

Matthew and Mark say “they”, in apparent reference to the roman soldiers. Luke and John, as I read the gospel, are not conclusive as to who pressed Simon the Cyrene into service. The Roman’s were not exactly an earthly auhority? As I read the New American Bible of the Catholic Church, Jesus gives their authority to God. We can only offer it up.

Peace-

From what I read in the episode with Jesus and Pontius Pilate, he does not give their authority to God but says any authority they do have is derived from God.

John 19

When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, and he went back inside the palace. “Where do you come from?” he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”

Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

The bible reminds us, and the church agrees, that we are under the authority of the governments over us and should abide by their rules.

(Edited)

 

[Michael19682]

From what I read in the episode with Jesus and Pontius Pilate, he does not give their authority to God but says any authority they do have is derived from God.

 

[fred_conty]

While reading today, I came across a particular scripture verse that I’d like some (name removed by moderator)ut on. In Luke 9:23, Jesus is quoted as saying “take up your cross and follow me.”

This verse takes place prior to the crucifixion. Is the author here projecting the crucifixion backwards into scripture here, or is there something else going on?

I am aware that crucifixion was a known thing, but it was usually reserved for criminals of the worst kind. Certainly nobody expected Jesus to wind up on a cross at this point in His ministry.

Thanks, in advance, for your insight.

God Bless,
William

Lk. 9;22-25
‘The Son of Man’ he said ‘is destined to suffer grievously, to be rejected by the elders
and chief priests and scribes and to be put to death, and to be raised up on the
third day.’
Then to all he said, ‘If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and
take up his cross EVERY DAY and follow me. For anyone who wants to save his life
will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake, that man will save it.’​

The first paragraph states his fore-knowledge of his own cross. This thought of the cross
leads to the idea in the second paragraph.

The second paragraph alludes to a DAILY carrying of a cross if we are to be His follower.
The “daily” would point to the cross his follower will carry in the course of any given day,
which are dissappointments, the afflictions, accusations, self denials, difficulties, responsibilities, and much more, for Jesus sake. This indicates that a follower of his should not expect a life of ease, but of renounciation and suffering. But He did say He would help us, “my yoke is sweet, and my burden is light.” “Come to me all you who are burdened and I will refresh you.”

This is similiar to the “seed” parable which must first die(lose life) in the ground so that it may have new life.
The followers of Jesus must die to themselves in order to have their new life in HIm.
If the seed does not die (renounciation) it cannot bring forth new life (grace).

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Yes, he says so. But my statement was an interpretation of what I read. We all live in this mystery, and can all attempt with futility to put it into words. There is no sin in that is there?

agree. no sin.

My futile attempt is this (and I rely heavily on the Church’s language for help in beginning this attempt): In emptying himself of his divinity and in his capacity as advocate for all men, he was the supreme expression of the unity of men and therefore when he acknowledged God’s power given to the Roman Pontius Pilate, who had offered this power to him with the implied condition of surrender to the will of men, he gave it back to God, and in so doing effectively pronounced himself a man and declared that he saw and recognized God’s will in all things (the cross) and all men, the Roman Pontius Pilate and his soldiers thereafter.

:newidea:

Sound like He actually made every man divine by His actions on the cross. Is that a logical conclusion based on what you wrote?

Thank you for your post. Here is something I thought of when I read your writings:

Ps 82:6-8
I declare: “Gods though you be, offspring of the Most High all of you, Yet like any mortal you shall die; like any prince you shall fall. Arise, O God, judge the earth, for yours are all the nations.

Alan

 

[Michael19682]

agree. no sin.



:newidea:

Sound like He actually made every man divine by His actions on the cross. Is that a logical conclusion based on what you wrote?

Thank you for your post. Here is something I thought of when I read your writings:

Ps 82:6-8
I declare: “Gods though you be, offspring of the Most High all of you, Yet like any mortal you shall die; like any prince you shall fall. Arise, O God, judge the earth, for yours are all the nations.

Alan

The Church teaches that the holy Spirit has spoken through the prophets. She also teaches that the OT is an imperfect document; as compared to the living words of the incarnate God, Jesus Christ, who defines perfection in himself and what it means for a human being:

It seems we must oftentimes choose between our most cherished heroes and Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.

I wonder, did you choose the verse you chose from the Psalms because of any particular heroe you admire? Did Albert Einstein comment on the following words of Jesus:

24 Martha said to him, “I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.”
25 Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

 

[Michael19682]

Lk. 9;22-25
‘The Son of Man’ he said ‘is destined to suffer grievously, to be rejected by the elders
and chief priests and scribes and to be put to death, and to be raised up on the
third day.’
Then to all he said, ‘If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and
take up his cross EVERY DAY and follow me. For anyone who wants to save his life
will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake, that man will save it.’​

The first paragraph states his fore-knowledge of his own cross. This thought of the cross
leads to the idea in the second paragraph.

The second paragraph alludes to a DAILY carrying of a cross if we are to be His follower.
The “daily” would point to the cross his follower will carry in the course of any given day,
which are dissappointments, the afflictions, accusations, self denials, difficulties, responsibilities, and much more, for Jesus sake. This indicates that a follower of his should not expect a life of ease, but of renounciation and suffering. But He did say He would help us, “my yoke is sweet, and my burden is light.” “Come to me all you who are burdened and I will refresh you.”

This is similiar to the “seed” parable which must first die(lose life) in the ground so that it may have new life.
The followers of Jesus must die to themselves in order to have their new life in HIm.
If the seed does not die (renounciation) it cannot bring forth new life (grace).

Fred, as one who tries to read mystics with faith and understanding, something which I fail at daily both in not reading enough and in failing to understand, I was graciously amazed at
how you were able to make the bolded and italicized statement just prior to your beautiful quote. Can I say that a true mystic, who realizes he is not in heaven and yet desires with all his being to be there at once, would say that the disappointments, afflictions, accusations etc are not the cross at all, but rather the cross, which is the weight of sin, is found in their opposites, i.e. worldly happiness, healings, and praise of men, which, respectively, and, in turn, fail to bring him there immediately?

 

[PJM]

=starnesw;8777833]While reading today, I came across a particular scripture verse that I’d like some (name removed by moderator)ut on. In Luke 9:23, Jesus is quoted as saying “take up your cross and follow me.”

This verse takes place prior to the crucifixion. Is the author here projecting the crucifixion backwards into scripture here, or is there something else going on?

I am aware that crucifixion was a known thing, but it was usually reserved for criminals of the worst kind. Certainly nobody expected Jesus to wind up on a cross at this point in His ministry.

Thanks, in advance, for your insight.

God Bless,
William

***Very perceptive:***thumbsup:

You may be surprised to learn that this precise messgae appears five times; THE SAME NUMBER OF TIMES as THE REAL PRESENCE? So Christ MUST think it’s important.

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me

Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross **Luke.9 :23 **And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. **Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 *****Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” ***

The MESSAGE being shared is ALL of these:

God choice to suffer and WE ALL must expect the same: 1Pet.5: 1, 9 “So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world.” 1Pet.4: 13 ” But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. Phil.1: 29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “

The idea that one can attain salvation from belief or Faith alone is complete nonsense.

Suffering is part of the human condition. If we accept it and offer in up back to God we gain Meirt: If not we simply endure it for what seems no logical reason at all.

Either God IS IN Charge or we are. the responsibility can’t be split.

And YES; Christ did forsee His being crucified.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Fred, as one who tries to read mystics with faith and understanding, something which I fail at daily both in not reading enough and in failing to understand, I was graciously amazed at
how you were able to make the bolded and italicized statement just prior to your beautiful quote. Can I say that a true mystic, who realizes he is not in heaven and yet desires with all his being to be there at once, would say that the disappointments, afflictions, accusations etc are not the cross at all, but rather the cross, which is the weight of sin, is found in their opposites, i.e. worldly happiness, healings, and praise of men, which, respectively, and, in turn, fail to bring him there immediately?

Michael,

I’m interested in hearing what context you might or might not have had in mind when you used the term “fail.”

Rhetorical questions … Did Jesus have to suffer, or did He just have to carry His cross, which involved a lot of suffering due to the accident of His circumstances in time and space – by which we mortal minds are bound? Are we all called to be Christ(s)? What if we had a cross that had accidental resemblance to the standards in the direction of elevation and breadth to the one Jesus carried? Would not one that is bought from a gift shop, one that is made of toothpicks and tape, and one in our dreams all be just as powerful as the one that carried Jesus of Nazareth to glory – due to the commonality they have in substance which is not implied by any commonality or uniqueness to the accidental except to those who believe and understand? Is this not a mechanism through which Transubstantiation might be realized?

Here’s another thing I’m thinking – I like to investigate radical contexts. Wouldn’t it be a slam dunk for God to glorify us based on transubstantiation of ourselves, initiated by the transubstantiation … a transubstantiation was instantiated only in the will but never in earth time and space by a RCC priest due to the positioning of a phase shift in the will, such as might be brought around by the death of a mortal body which coexists with the will?

I mean, come on. If God can remove His own mother’s original sin using His cross, effective before she was born, then I’m pretty sure He can pull the other thing off.

If that’s the case, then that explain why my pastor told my wife that Rich Mullins was Catholic. I talked to his confession father Matt McGuinness after his death and said, “Father Matt, rumor has it that Rich was to receive his first communion the very weekend that he died on the way here for his concert. Is that true? Enquiring minds want to know.”

Father Matt replied, "he wasn’t going to be ready for this weekend, but we were expecting to do it two or three weeks after he died.

My family was very close to Rich as far as anyone who wasn’t a personal friend; he played a benefit concert for marriage encounter at my parish, on my personal piano I had moved there for the occasion. After the concert, one of the photos I took ended up being used at many websites discussing whether Rich was planning to become Catholic. For those interested in the story, you can do a google image search on “rich mullins catholic” and the first one that usually comes up leads to this web site, on which if you scroll down a ways you will find my story about it. Note in the photo at the top of the page, Rich is flanked by two priests, in the presence of the Tabernacle (our Lord wasn’t in it because Fr. Busch moved Him for the concert) and the crucifix, with my son Chris in the background. Father Busch titled the photo, “a Rose between two Thorns.”

Also there is a review of the same concert by our personal friend Danl Blackwood, who did Rich’s website.

Gosh I think I strayed. Gotta go pick up kids now.

Peace and joy,
Alan

 

[Michael19682]

Michael,

I’m interested in hearing what context you might or might not have had in mind when you used the term “fail.”

Rhetorical questions … Did Jesus have to suffer, or did He just have to carry His cross, which involved a lot of suffering due to the accident of His circumstances in time and space – by which we mortal minds are bound? Are we all called to be Christ(s)? What if we had a cross that had accidental resemblance to the standards in the direction of elevation and breadth to the one Jesus carried? Would not one that is bought from a gift shop, one that is made of toothpicks and tape, and one in our dreams all be just as powerful as the one that carried Jesus of Nazareth to glory – due to the commonality they have in substance which is not implied by any commonality or uniqueness to the accidental except to those who believe and understand? Is this not a mechanism through which Transubstantiation might be realized?

Here’s another thing I’m thinking – I like to investigate radical contexts. Wouldn’t it be a slam dunk for God to glorify us based on transubstantiation of ourselves, initiated by the transubstantiation … a transubstantiation was instantiated only in the will but never in earth time and space by a RCC priest due to the positioning of a phase shift in the will, such as might be brought around by the death of a mortal body which coexists with the will?

I mean, come on. If God can remove His own mother’s original sin using His cross, effective before she was born, then I’m pretty sure He can pull the other thing off.

If that’s the case, then that explain why my pastor told my wife that Rich Mullins was Catholic. I talked to his confession father Matt McGuinness after his death and said, “Father Matt, rumor has it that Rich was to receive his first communion the very weekend that he died on the way here for his concert. Is that true? Enquiring minds want to know.”

Father Matt replied, "he wasn’t going to be ready for this weekend, but we were expecting to do it two or three weeks after he died.

My family was very close to Rich as far as anyone who wasn’t a personal friend; he played a benefit concert for marriage encounter at my parish, on my personal piano I had moved there for the occasion. After the concert, one of the photos I took ended up being used at many websites discussing whether Rich was planning to become Catholic. For those interested in the story, you can do a google image search on “rich mullins catholic” and the first one that usually comes up leads to this web site, on which if you scroll down a ways you will find my story about it. Note in the photo at the top of the page, Rich is flanked by two priests, in the presence of the Tabernacle (our Lord wasn’t in it because Fr. Busch moved Him for the concert) and the crucifix, with my son Chris in the background. Father Busch titled the photo, “a Rose between two Thorns.”

Also there is a review of the same concert by our personal friend Danl Blackwood, who did Rich’s website.

Gosh I think I strayed. Gotta go pick up kids now.

Peace and joy,
Alan

Alan,

I used the word fail in the sense that it is something that did not succeed. The context I used it appears in retrospection to be of a two-fold nature, one literal, the other purely in figurative reference to the sentence as you read it, viz., fail to bring him there immediately. The two are somehow bound together in my life. I have suffered from schizophrenia (ok, no shame in it any longer, demons or personal sin the cause as worst cases, still no sin to be ill; though I really ought to get back to confession and go to Church as a full participant asap). But, I have, largely, through the grace of God, clear my mind, get rid of thoughts that should not be. So I don’t know what to do with the help given to me by my merciful Mother, who revealed this prayer to me in the days of my deepest anguish and who after I accepted that revelation and applied it to my own mind (for I first thought the prayer mere medicine), finding not initial immediate liberation in repeating its words, did repent of all my sin against her love by trying to revive her deeply disturbed and distrought human body and mind with words much like those one traditionally uses to refer to the Queen of Heaven. This means that I know of no other woman on earth more worthy of my love and devotion than my mother. Then or since.

She and my father are separated many, many years. The man she married represents the law. As such the temporal consequences of my offenses against God were never realized, and indeed, by many, forgiven. That is yet an altogether different means by which my mother gave me a chance at living happily; and, though I am grateful for that means, hope it has served she and her new husband with finding a life of joy and happiness.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Alan,

I used the word fail in the sense that it is something that did not succeed. The context I used it appears in retrospection to be of a two-fold nature, one literal, the other purely in figurative reference to the sentence as you read it, viz., fail to bring him there immediately. The two are somehow bound together in my life.

Nice. I think that you have covered all the possible permutations, and if you haven’t, then by your reading this and me yours, we will have agreed in the name of God thus instantiate it for all. Done.

I have suffered from schizophrenia (ok, no shame in it any longer, demons or personal sin the cause as worst cases, still no sin to be ill; though I really ought to get back to confession and go to Church as a full participant asap).

Greeting, fellow crazy dude. You schizo, me bipolar. Government certified as totally and permanently disabled, with onset 6/8/2001 after an event in the cathedral. A few hours after the event, I was lied to, captured, and locked up against my will.

That reminds me, I owe my schizophrenic sister-in-law a return call; I’ll get to it right after posting this.

This means that I know of no other woman on earth more worthy of my love and devotion than my mother. Then or since.

But by your devotion to your Mother and/or mother, not only does that get you the promise in the only commandment with a promise attached, but you have also given each and every woman – both individually and as a group, the same devotion.

She and my father are separated many, many years. The man she married represents the law. As such the temporal consequences of my offenses against God were never realized, and indeed, by many, forgiven. That is yet an altogether different means by which my mother gave me a chance at living happily; and, though I am grateful for that means, hope it has served she and her new husband with finding a life of joy and happiness.

It is clear that you were raised in the OT as a son of Adam and Abraham, and now you are with Jesus whether you are or not. I cannot tell you in many lifetimes, how much your post means to me. Thank you.

Peace and joy,
Alan

 

[fred_conty]

Fred, as one who tries to read mystics with faith and understanding, something which I fail at daily both in not reading enough and in failing to understand, I was graciously amazed at
how you were able to make the bolded and italicized statement just prior to your beautiful quote. Can I say that a true mystic, who realizes he is not in heaven and yet desires with all his being to be there at once, would say that the disappointments, afflictions, accusations etc are not the cross at all, but rather the cross, which is the weight of sin, is found in their opposites, i.e. worldly happiness, healings, and praise of men, which, respectively, and, in turn, fail to bring him there immediately?

In the mystic, from my little reading knowledge, seemed to thrive on suffering because it seemed to be a reinforcement to their love. They frequently asked for more suffering to please their love, Jesus. It was almost as if they craved this suffering to show their affection. But it was not infrequently denied them by their superiors which caused them no little pain and demanded them to center on the will of God and to deny their will, the cross. And this is the cornel of the spiritual life, to do His will without wanting any good or pleasure for oneself, disregarding worldly happiness, healings, and praise of others.

However the ordinary follower of Jesus do not seek suffering but still have many forms of suffering in their daily life. Boredom, financial stress, needs of their children day in and day out, family disappointments, buisness challenges, sickness, etc., is the cross engaging them in dying to themselves for those around them. Pleasure, happiness, and so on, may also be sought within reason of God’s will according to the follower’s spiritual vigar and virtue. To me this is the level that Jesus is addressing.

Just a thought.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

In the mystic, from my little reading knowledge, seemed to thrive on suffering because it seemed to be a reinforcement to their love.

Just a thought.

For myself, i thrive on passion. i like to see extreme cases, because that helps me understand and appreciate the other 99.9% that we encounter on a routine basis.

I really don’t care whether it’s positive or negative or whatever for myself, so i let others around me use my meme as a dumping ground. several years ago i went to a rock concert with my son and some of his friends, at a band i never heard of i think it was sevendust. during the break, i felt so in communion with everybody in the cotillion, that i gave a bit of a speech. about 20 kids formed a semicircle about me as i was raising my arm and yelling, “everybody go ahead and party. don’t worry about a thing! there is no guilt and nothing wrong in this room, right now! so go ahead with your party and if you need to, blame everything on me!!! there are no sins in this room!!!” They kids applauded me and one young girl (19-ish, maybe) hugged me, then the band came back and did the second half.

passion seems to be a generic term for whatever one wants it to be, such as anger, love, guilt, pride, fear. anything that causes waves even if reacting to another cause or wave. you can even be passionate about being neutral or indifferent. you can be extremely average, extremely normal, or extremely effective, but any extreme draws me to it like a moth to a flame.

like Ted Nugent once told Rush Limbaugh, if you ain’t making waves, you ain’t paddling.

Alan

 

[fred_conty]

For myself, i thrive on passion. i like to see extreme cases, because that helps me understand and appreciate the other 99.9% that we encounter on a routine basis.

I really don’t care whether it’s positive or negative or whatever for myself, so i let others around me use my meme as a dumping ground. several years ago i went to a rock concert with my son and some of his friends, at a band i never heard of i think it was sevendust. during the break, i felt so in communion with everybody in the cotillion, that i gave a bit of a speech. about 20 kids formed a semicircle about me as i was raising my arm and yelling, “everybody go ahead and party. don’t worry about a thing! there is no guilt and nothing wrong in this room, right now! so go ahead with your party and if you need to, blame everything on me!!! there are no sins in this room!!!” They kids applauded me and one young girl (19-ish, maybe) hugged me, then the band came back and did the second half.

passion seems to be a generic term for whatever one wants it to be, such as anger, love, guilt, pride, fear. anything that causes waves even if reacting to another cause or wave. you can even be passionate about being neutral or indifferent. you can be extremely average, extremely normal, or extremely effective, but any extreme draws me to it like a moth to a flame.

like Ted Nugent once told Rush Limbaugh, if you ain’t making waves, you ain’t paddling.

Alan

Catholic ‘+’ ?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Catholic ‘+’ ?

OMG fred, thank You for reminding me.

Just within the last few days, I considered changing my religion.

I used to write multitasking software using the language C++, where the ++ is a meme that is used to signify taking the next step.

so basically if we want to graduate into the real world, we not only have to subject ourselves to the RCC, we have to understand that we were entirely responsible for creating, protecting, sanctifying, defiling, blaspheming, loving, and all the other things humans have done to her forever since before the big bang, not to mention adam or jesus.

So I will obey your command and change my status. my lawyer advises that if I want my religion to hold up in court, i had better not make it appear that the ++ indicates something outside the church. except it does. that’s why the church keeps growing becaue as the universe expands and wars and hate and division increases (not causal, but one can view it that way) she does this by denying anything outside herself. this was probably the most clever thing I can think of right offhand that Jesus did. He told us His Church included all, not just a certain few. then within the church, he gave us free will to decide if we’re ready to be judged and cleansed, nourished, etc by deciding whether to take communion, which is orthogonal to the issue of perceived sin, and to which we have the mutually orthoganal dimension of actual sin which is by definition, design, and desire, whatever you make it.

So the mentality Jesus was coming from was that if He took a passionate person who is even willing to kill (a form of denying) Jesus Himself at the request of Christ in the person of Pilate, contrary to the popular notion that loyalty and obedience are the same thing, to build His church, he knew that the undisciplined passion of Peter would do exactly what it did. Build a sinful entity with authority over all the creation, but with no accountability for what happens, then make up an imaginary “guide” and say the guide applies not only to the Body of Christ, His mystical Church, but to every part. The third tree from the left at the 17th milepost beyond the rabbit hole, for example, is thereby subject to the authority of RCC, as jesus spoke it was become. then we are told we have to be submissive and obedient and we don’t even get a vote so we have taxation without representation. then we set up a model of the church which also has authority with no accountability, except instead of using mystical means of controlling people, it uses physical means such as guns and roses.

So here’s a question Jesus asked and maybe now I’ll get some intelligent answers.

Can a good tree bear bad fruit? Can a bad tree bear good fruit?

The answer is so obvious that this puzzle doesn’t even justify the question mark … the mark of the beast that needs and answer and has a purpose in life until that answer is found. it is beautiful to see my humans taking a stand on this and saying “yes” or “no.”

Then they fight about it. “are you a good or bad tree?” “is this good or bad fruit” “is nitroglycerin something that preserves life or removes it?” As long as there’s a fight, there is reason to have friends and they will exist. when Jesus’s job is done, He is a “black hole”’ is created, which goes around vacuuming up reality of anything that gets too close.

that’s why we are afraid of darkness. if we are seen as dark, that means we are hogging all of our light and not sharing any of it. that’s what a black hole is: another word for greed. Does Jesus do greed? Absolutely!!! He was a human, were He not? Greed gathers in like gathering waste or gathering treasure or gathering your thoughts. well in physics a black hole gathers in reality itself, light and everything. it’s all about gravity. that’s why we are so interesting in discussing grave matter, because grave is a metaphor for life and death. so a mortal sin has to involve a grave and a death, so we can bridge the living with the dead. if you live, you will sin because the two go hand in hand, in adam’s world. if you die you are one with all, but you just don’t realize it because you aren’t greedy anymore because the grave matter reconciled your greed with your actions of stealing.

I saw this become true many years ago, created by a tv commercial about grape jelly. it might have been welch’s anyway and it was hilarious because they made the self evident point (don’t points normally make themselves evident?) that if your grandma was making jelly make the kitchen smell wonderful, then you have evidence grandma’s jelly was lame by comparison to the jelly they put the smell back into. can anybody else remember that commercial? i can’t seem to find it on youtube

Alan

 

[bmullins]

OMG fred, thank You for reminding me.

Just within the last few days, I considered changing my religion.

I used to write multitasking software using the language C++, where the ++ is a meme that is used to signify taking the next step.

so basically if we want to graduate into the real world, we not only have to subject ourselves to the RCC, we have to understand that we were entirely responsible for creating, protecting, sanctifying, defiling, blaspheming, loving, and all the other things humans have done to her forever since before the big bang, not to mention adam or jesus.

So I will obey your command and change my status. my lawyer advises that if I want my religion to hold up in court, i had better not make it appear that the ++ indicates something outside the church. except it does. that’s why the church keeps growing becaue as the universe expands and wars and hate and division increases (not causal, but one can view it that way) she does this by denying anything outside herself. this was probably the most clever thing I can think of right offhand that Jesus did. He told us His Church included all, not just a certain few. then within the church, he gave us free will to decide if we’re ready to be judged and cleansed, nourished, etc by deciding whether to take communion, which is orthogonal to the issue of perceived sin, and to which we have the mutually orthoganal dimension of actual sin which is by definition, design, and desire, whatever you make it.

So the mentality Jesus was coming from was that if He took a passionate person who is even willing to kill (a form of denying) Jesus Himself at the request of Christ in the person of Pilate, contrary to the popular notion that loyalty and obedience are the same thing, to build His church, he knew that the undisciplined passion of Peter would do exactly what it did. Build a sinful entity with authority over all the creation, but with no accountability for what happens, then make up an imaginary “guide” and say the guide applies not only to the Body of Christ, His mystical Church, but to every part. The third tree from the left at the 17th milepost beyond the rabbit hole, for example, is thereby subject to the authority of RCC, as jesus spoke it was become. then we are told we have to be submissive and obedient and we don’t even get a vote so we have taxation without representation. then we set up a model of the church which also has authority with no accountability, except instead of using mystical means of controlling people, it uses physical means such as guns and roses.

So here’s a question Jesus asked and maybe now I’ll get some intelligent answers.

Can a good tree bear bad fruit? Can a bad tree bear good fruit?

The answer is so obvious that this puzzle doesn’t even justify the question mark … the mark of the beast that needs and answer and has a purpose in life until that answer is found. it is beautiful to see my humans taking a stand on this and saying “yes” or “no.”

Then they fight about it. “are you a good or bad tree?” “is this good or bad fruit” “is nitroglycerin something that preserves life or removes it?” As long as there’s a fight, there is reason to have friends and they will exist. when Jesus’s job is done, He is a “black hole”’ is created, which goes around vacuuming up reality of anything that gets too close.

that’s why we are afraid of darkness. if we are seen as dark, that means we are hogging all of our light and not sharing any of it. that’s what a black hole is: another word for greed. Does Jesus do greed? Absolutely!!! He was a human, were He not? Greed gathers in like gathering waste or gathering treasure or gathering your thoughts. well in physics a black hole gathers in reality itself, light and everything. it’s all about gravity. that’s why we are so interesting in discussing grave matter, because grave is a metaphor for life and death. so a mortal sin has to involve a grave and a death, so we can bridge the living with the dead. if you live, you will sin because the two go hand in hand, in adam’s world. if you die you are one with all, but you just don’t realize it because you aren’t greedy anymore because the grave matter reconciled your greed with your actions of stealing.

I saw this become true many years ago, created by a tv commercial about grape jelly. it might have been welch’s anyway and it was hilarious because they made the self evident point (don’t points normally make themselves evident?) that if your grandma was making jelly make the kitchen smell wonderful, then you have evidence grandma’s jelly was lame by comparison to the jelly they put the smell back into. can anybody else remember that commercial? i can’t seem to find it on youtube

Alan

Say what? You lost me after the ++ increment operator analogy.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Catholic ‘+’ ?

Hey wait a minute. somebody lied to me.

honest to god, i didn’t know i already added the +, because i didn’t actually add it yet while i pondered making it a ++. My lack of faith thought it precious that you saw + where it wasn’t, while my lack of faith didn’t see the + at all even when it was there.

this is what brother paul meant by it isn’t me, but the spirit within me who was tempora(ri)lly blinded by my pride so that we could have this procreative act of disagreement, which automaticallly creates more Jesus to reconcile.

So do you want to create Jesus? Love. Sin. Talk. Think. Stop doing anything. Any act of the will whatsoever creates, modifies, and destroys Christ all at once. That is why it takes every single member of the Body to make the Body of Christ – it is a formula that is everlasting.

so what do I do? figure out why i missed the plus. well, “why” is a human concept used when a person plays stupid. why am I stupid? hmmm… i know, i can blame it on the computer, or maybe temporary insanity. i know, i’ll choose a ready made scapegoat. the two greatest ones are God and Satan. How do I know? Because the RCC said it so and I can change it, but that doesn’t change anything but the noise level. God is spirit, and Satan knows all the back alleys to guide us in places and times of weak faith. So God enlisted Satan to take over the things that Christ wasn’t able to do, because the problem is we have this issue of idol worshipping and God wanted all the honor to go to Jesus through no merit of his own (people think you have to work to succeed, and they are right, but there are X definnitions of work) because he wanted humans to have a channel to exercise their powers they call “awe.” So He decided that Satan would be the dark force, and that way we can herd in all the creatures, whether they are nocturnal, whatever the opposite of nocturnal, or not subject to 24 hour days.

oh no gotta take a kid too scoolll…HOLD THAT THOUGHT! BET YOU can NEVER forget THIS word.

ules the material world. As Christ-men and Christ-women (he made them male and female)

 

[fred_conty]

Hey wait a minute. somebody lied to me.

honest to god, i didn’t know i already added the +, because i didn’t actually add it yet while i pondered making it a ++. My lack of faith thought it precious that you saw + where it wasn’t, while my lack of faith didn’t see the + at all even when it was there.

this is what brother paul meant by it isn’t me, but the spirit within me who was tempora(ri)lly blinded by my pride so that we could have this procreative act of disagreement, which automaticallly creates more Jesus to reconcile.

So do you want to create Jesus? Love. Sin. Talk. Think. Stop doing anything. Any act of the will whatsoever creates, modifies, and destroys Christ all at once. That is why it takes every single member of the Body to make the Body of Christ – it is a formula that is everlasting.

so what do I do? figure out why i missed the plus. well, “why” is a human concept used when a person plays stupid. why am I stupid? hmmm… i know, i can blame it on the computer, or maybe temporary insanity. i know, i’ll choose a ready made scapegoat. the two greatest ones are God and Satan. How do I know? Because the RCC said it so and I can change it, but that doesn’t change anything but the noise level. God is spirit, and Satan knows all the back alleys to guide us in places and times of weak faith. So God enlisted Satan to take over the things that Christ wasn’t able to do, because the problem is we have this issue of idol worshipping and God wanted all the honor to go to Jesus through no merit of his own (people think you have to work to succeed, and they are right, but there are X definnitions of work) because he wanted humans to have a channel to exercise their powers they call “awe.” So He decided that Satan would be the dark force, and that way we can herd in all the creatures, whether they are nocturnal, whatever the opposite of nocturnal, or not subject to 24 hour days.

oh no gotta take a kid too scoolll…HOLD THAT THOUGHT! BET YOU can NEVER forget THIS word.

ules the material world. As Christ-men and Christ-women (he made them male and female)

Catholic “+” ?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Catholic “+” ?

You’re right. I should quit messing around and take off the mask.

Oh well, there have been two or more witnesses, so I guess I am bound to change my religion to something a little better suited for me, in the eyes of others. I’ve been disquised as billions of cafeteria catholics over the years, and it’s about time I come out of the closet, if you please. I will change it to something that is not what I am, but is something that will help others understand where I believe I’m coming from. Because I am not X, where X is any onw or more human words. At the same time, I am precisely X, because whoever thought I was caused me to be on the merits of having tried to put me into a box. You see, it’s kind of like cell walls. The living part is enclosed in a container. Biologists keep wanting to know why I gave plants cell walls and not humans. Would you believe I’ve actually received complaints because I made somebody a human and not a flower. The funny thing is, I didn’t do anything except be. That added power to the thought which included a mass perception of a physical body, (wow mass as in many, or gravity, or Mass – all the same truth, different points of view.)

So without further ado, I will give a religion. I’m glad religion as viewed is not my essence, because religion without an opposite collapse into a black hole. When we see a black hole, what we are really seeing is the fallout from a god just like us, who decided to reset and try again. So they create a vacuum and remove a section of reality so they can regenerate spanning another universe greater than before. A grain of wheat must fall to the ground and die. Funny thing is we use the word “die” when a spirit ceases to look like it did in the past, but if people would just listen to themselves, they are never constant, always changing, so you could say that at any given time we are dead to what we were (given our characterists bound by will or overriding force such as a bulldozer). just look at it as a universe seed. There are many of them. But if you really want to apply English most closely to the mindset of this age, which was engineered by Jesus, you have quite a few options. One way to describe is from first person point of view, and that might go something like this: A black hole is what i use when I want to make more room for an upgraded reality. It vacuums up waste all around it, including excess space itself, and morphs it into a new dimension which is why we can calculate that it is infintely heavy, and achieve an answer that makes sense based on how much light appears from our view to bend.

The fact is, black holes were spoken by physicists as a metaphor for baptism. A black hole announces an idea from which a new reality will emerge. Every molecule and every part therein (note that God cannot count the parts, so whatever He says is correct because if He says it, then it is so for all of eternity in our time dimension and whatever it is in different realities that are not based on seeing what spirits would do given an artificial construct called time. that is, spirit doesn’t normally have any such thing as time, but one spirit thought it up, so the whole spirit was bound by the concept we use for our God that includes “absolute Truth,” then the whole universe responds by instantiating, using all the powers of heaven and earth, the reality of the spirit. the catch is the spirit must be convicted. good or bad, it has to be so true to be beyond question, nay beyond even considering the thought – so if there is no “word” (I use “word” as a rough equivalent to the word “meme” as far as most people are concerned) then there is no thought, and without a thought, there is no model, without a model there can be no reality the model is to represent, and therefore we wouldn’t exist. When that happens, we will find by ceasing to exist, that we were really God all the time, with various types of handicaps with as million flavors as there are souls, and unlimited potential to add rooms to the individuality concept in the kingdom. The hard part about following Jesus for most mortals, is that they have been damaged by the parsing up of God (parsing btw was Jesus and Adam’s little project that they let Peter run for a while, but Peter returned his keys this morning, having completed his work. Problem is, I have the key right here, annointed with holy oil, protected in the same case and pouch used to take the Body and Blood of Christ.

hey i just realized something about transubsantiation. Christ is no more or less present after the consecration as before, as far as God’s concerned. That’s because God doesn’t understand forward and reverse; he offloaded that burden to adam, who offered to let God rest a while so God gave adam His consciouness … which was fine because adam had the idea to do everything possible to die and go back to being just God without being imprisoned in a mortal body – and death was OK with God, because he likes a tidy universe but that isn’t to say he even knows whether it’s tidy. In God’s eyes, “clean” doesn’t mean dumbed down, but it can because I just said that it might, so it will. Oops, there’s that pesky “will” hanging around again – what’s a God to do, anyway?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Adam was doing just fine, until I just thought, gosh is this all there is? Eternal bliss? (of course he really didn’t think that because he didn’t have a word for anything non-physical until he ate the tree of unity that gave him the resource to split apart and multiply, and multiply, (like loaves and fishes) until such time as God is chopped up into so many little pieces, that God forgets that He actually is God. This was all Jesus’s idea, of course, because Jesus then proceeded to imagine the universe a certain way. Before the cross and resurrection, people were deluded by satan into thinking that a) they weren’t God, and b) if we get smart enough, we can figure out how to become God. That was the tower of Babel that you see as of this moment rapidly weakening and now we can all watch it collapse, and find out that God was in the tower, God was the tower, because God is all. So they were trying to build one God to reach another. That’s like having to make a long distance telephone call to let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. Of course now that I let it slip, yes indeed we have the technology to do just that. My left arm could be in Cleveland, and the rest of me here, and I can control it with my mind from that distance. If humans can do it with wires, chips, and electric power, then of course the spirit world has the option of jumping to conclusion, to fit the fancy of whatever God is in charge of any given reality. Actually, “authority” means nothing to God, because it was spoken into being by flesh, under influence of the spirit. When that happens, it is too late to look back, because “back” is a human word and has no meaning. So my personal opinion is that what we can do next as children of God … ummmm. …

Dang. Forgot. Well give me a minute to contemplate … ok back.

What really cracks me up is the flesh minds have taken on this mass illusion that God, being an authority, commands and controls us. That isn’t really the case. It is the Spirit who guides through wordless and silent “groanings” each notion of the spirit that may end up sooner, later, or never being instatiated into human form. It is the flesh trying to do what God does using mortally designed powers, and that is to coordinate with other people. Problem is, pride gave them a sense of identity and in fact, without pride none of us exists because we all have a pride center, and yes that includes you, whoever you are living, dead, non-existent, to give a mortal projection of the reality that is not even approached. but then, gosh. here we are in yet another logical bind … what to do …

sorry but i’m making this up as I go. i don’t have another 2000 years until I have to get this job done.

well hey i’ll just telly ou the punch line. Peter’s officially into retirement, although neither He nor his actions changed. He has done everything Jesus planned for him to do save one thing. Die and give it away to others. And really, honestly, I think it’s time to call a truce and get this divide and conquor idea out of control. we already see that if a consciousness creates itself and thus becomes God, (neither is causal – “causal” is not in God’s vocabulary) we can do anything from love to hate and all flavors and dimensions between, and the consciousness exists all at the same time as all the other things happen at the same time. or rather, they happen without regard to time. we always have the entire truth of history with every word we speak. so past is a construct of a consciousness, that chose to become the world we live in.

Alan

 

[bmullins]

I was seeing a bit of that in your posts. That you seem to equate yourself with a god. That is a bit disturbing, I am glad though that you changed your designation to at least reflect the underlying religious beliefs.