Luther and the contemporary Catholic Church

[jesusmademe]

You people have missunderstood me. You just trying to attack me.

Anyway, here is a cool video:

And this:

 

[GKMotley]

I got my BA in psych, completed my MA course work, but not the thesis, and put the whole thing off for years, while I got married and went on military active duty. Got a grad degree eventually, and had a plan worked out for PhD work, in personality theory (all this was 50 years ago). Never actually returned to the idea, got really bored with the subject, and don’t really miss it.

I agree with HR.

 

[jesusmademe]

Ok, let’s take away all the pastoral counseling and start debating the faith and learn all intellectual arguments! Then you will be very happy!!!
If you dont like pastoral counseling then that is up to you.

 

[HopkinsReb]

Ok, let’s take away all the pastoral counseling and start debating the faith and learn all intellectual arguments! Then you will be very happy!!!

This is a strawman, of course. Nobody is saying that all problems are intellectual or that pastoral counseling is a bad thing. We’re saying that we shouldn’t reduce Luther to a basket case and use that to dismiss what he said out of hand.

 

[GKMotley]

I, for one, would like to be very happy. That usually means I have bought a new stack of books. Or that most of my daily frustrations resolve under rational thought and effort, or sometimes by ignoring them. Occasionally, I get pastoral counseling from one of the parish priests. Helps.

Not sure about how your proposal would affect me, but it is kind of you to suggest it.

 

[jesusmademe]

What did you actually say? I didnt actually undestand you.
I was saying that if someone have psychological problems then arguments may not always help. What did you say?
I also said that Protestantism isn’t always an intellectual problem. You say this is wrong. I can’t imagine Protestants just being Protestant due to intellectual arguments. What did you really say?

 

[HopkinsReb]

“Maybe” has been sorely lacking in your posts. You have said repeatedly and confidently that Luther was mentally ill and used that to justify not engaging with his intellectual arguments.

I also said that Protestantism isn’t always an intellectual problem. You say this is wrong.

This is not, in fact, what I said. I said that you can’t simply assume that those who disagree with you have mental problems. I’m not saying anything either way about Luther’s psychology because 1) I’m not a psychologist and 2) even if I were, it would be grossly irresponsible to diagnose anyone I’ve never met. I’ll only engage Luther in a way that is fair to him, and that means engaging his ideas honestly instead of attacking his intelligence, character, or sanity. Unless you’ve met him, I suggest you not diagnose him either.

I can’t imagine Protestants just being Protestant due to intellectual arguments.

I suggest you improve your imagination.

 

[GKMotley]

One engages intellectual arguments with intellectual arguments, not ad hominems which pollute the well of discourse.

For all that, I think it might be possible to theorize about the psychological state of an historical figure, but it’s a level of abstraction away from dealing with a contemporary person, face to face. And still leaves one with the necessity of engaging intellectual positions.

 

[JonNC]

You people have missunderstood me. You just trying to attack me.

Anyway, here is a cool video:

And this:

I am not attacking you. I’m attacking a tactic you are using.

 

[HopkinsReb]

jesusmademe:

You people have missunderstood me. You just trying to attack me.

Anyway, here is a cool video:

And this:

I am not attacking you. I’m attacking a tactic you are using.

In fairness, I did call him insane. But I thought that’s just what we were doing in this conversation.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

jesusmademe:

You people have missunderstood me. You just trying to attack me.

Anyway, here is a cool video:

And this:

I am not attacking you. I’m attacking a tactic you are using.

In fairness, I did call him insane. But I thought that’s just what we were doing in this conversation.

I think it was obvious what we were doing. If he thought that you were attacking him, he missed the point.

 

[AlNg]

Wasn’t Martin Luther having mental health issues?

Possibly and the same has been said about Adolf Hitler. Just compare what Martin Luther said with what Adolf Hitler said. Do you see any similarity?
Hitler: "The Jews are the bane of mankind. … this sort of people cannot be integrated in the social order or into an organized nation. They are parasites on the body of a healthy society, that live off of expulsion of decent people. One cannot expect them to fit into a state that requires order and discipline. There is only one thing to be done with them: To exterminate them. The state holds this right since, while precious men die on the battlefront, it would be nothing less than criminal to spare these bastards. "
Martin Luther:
“I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. "
" My essay, I hope, will furnish a Christian…with enough material not only to defend himself against the blind, venomous Jews but also to become the foe of the Jews’ malice, lying, and cursing, and to understand not only that their belief is false but that they are surely possessed by all devils.”

 

[otjm]

While it is the bishops who can come together to reform the Church, it can (and currently is) the laity who have held the bishops’ feet to the fire which has started the reformation of the clergy sex abuse crisis.

 

[Neithan]

Certainly laity and priests or deacons can pressure bishops to reform, but it is ultimately something the bishops have to do. If they do not, there is no reform, although that could, and has, lead to massive scandal. After the Diet of Worms Luther decided to break away on his own authority, bolstered by political allies, rationalizing it by an appeal to his own interpretation of sacred scripture (and tradition). Textbook heretic.

 

[JonNC]

jesusmademe:

Wasn’t Martin Luther having mental health issues?

Possibly and the same has been said about Adolf Hitler. Just compare what Martin Luther said with what Adolf Hitler said. Do you see any similarity?
Hitler: "The Jews are the bane of mankind. … this sort of people cannot be integrated in the social order or into an organized nation. They are parasites on the body of a healthy society, that live off of expulsion of decent people. One cannot expect them to fit into a state that requires order and discipline. There is only one thing to be done with them: To exterminate them. The state holds this right since, while precious men die on the battlefront, it would be nothing less than criminal to spare these bastards. "
Martin Luther:
“I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. "
" My essay, I hope, will furnish a Christian…with enough material not only to defend himself against the blind, venomous Jews but also to become the foe of the Jews’ malice, lying, and cursing, and to understand not only that their belief is false but that they are surely possessed by all devils.”

And Catholics such as Johannes Eck said similar things.
Comparing Luther, Eck, Chrysostom to Hitler is odious, in my view.

 

[HopkinsReb]

jesusmademe:

Wasn’t Martin Luther having mental health issues?

Possibly and the same has been said about Adolf Hitler. Just compare what Martin Luther said with what Adolf Hitler said. Do you see any similarity?
Hitler: "The Jews are the bane of mankind. … this sort of people cannot be integrated in the social order or into an organized nation. They are parasites on the body of a healthy society, that live off of expulsion of decent people. One cannot expect them to fit into a state that requires order and discipline. There is only one thing to be done with them: To exterminate them. The state holds this right since, while precious men die on the battlefront, it would be nothing less than criminal to spare these bastards. "
Martin Luther:
“I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. "
" My essay, I hope, will furnish a Christian…with enough material not only to defend himself against the blind, venomous Jews but also to become the foe of the Jews’ malice, lying, and cursing, and to understand not only that their belief is false but that they are surely possessed by all devils.”

This is one of the most bizarre instances of Godwin’s Law I have ever seen. Holy moly I thought this thread couldn’t get sillier.

Comparing Luther, Eck, Chrysostom to Hitler is odious, in my view.

Luther and Hitler both spoke German. Coincidence? I THINK NOT.

 

[AlNg]

Comparing Luther, Eck, Chrysostom to Hitler is odious, in my view.

The holocaust was also odious. What was its cause except for anti-semitism ? Luther was a reformer in the Church and could have spoken out against anti-semitism. But he did not. Quite the contrary, He went along with it.

 

[HopkinsReb]

JonNC:

Comparing Luther, Eck, Chrysostom to Hitler is odious, in my view.

The holocaust was also odious. What was its cause except for anti-semitism ? Luther was a reformer in the Church and could have spoken out against anti-semitism. But he did not. Quite the contrary, He went along with it.

Exactly what point do you think you’re making here? That Luther is somehow responsible for the Holocaust?

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Comparing Luther, Eck, Chrysostom to Hitler is odious, in my view.

The holocaust was also odious. What was its cause except for anti-semitism ? Luther was a reformer in the Church and could have spoken out against anti-semitism. But he did not. Quite the contrary, He went along with it.

The entire Catholic Church at that time could have. In fact, there were reformers who did and people like Eck called them judaisers.
So who did he go along with? Catholics.
Few had clean hands in that time.