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GKMotley
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Ghettos, proscriptions on employment/exclusion from professions, several other etcs.
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HopkinsReb
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And that they tended to succeed despite these barriers made them even more hated.
Hat tip to Thomas Sowell
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GKMotley
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Henry’s quest for a decree of nullity was a tightly wrapped ball of theology and state politics. Subject has long been a hobby of mine. While what Henry sought, the declaration that his marriage to Katherine was not a valid one, due to impediments, was commonplace in his times, one curious point stood out. Clement, pusillanimous, but reasonably shrewd, suggested a possible solution would be for Henry to, in effect, be allowed to commit bigamy. Marry Anne, ignore Katherine. This was a ruse, to score political points, and delay the matter, as Clement long attempted to do. See Scarisbrick, HENRY VIII, p. 197. Overall, the best book on Henry, and his Great Matter.
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jesusmademe
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Wasn’t Martin Luther having mental health issues? I have heard that he was extremely scrupulous and afraid of the lightning. It soubds he should have gotten psychiatric help.
I cannot confirm this but this is what I have heard.
He was probably overthinking stuff. People in those days didn’t really care for psychiatry I have been told. Maybe he had OCD or Bipolar.
I cannot confirm this but this is what I have heard.
He was probably overthinking stuff. People in those days didn’t really care for psychiatry I have been told. Maybe he had OCD or Bipolar.
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HopkinsReb
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Yes, from all those imminently qualified 16th-century psychiatrists
Can we not play armchair psychologist for people who have been dead for 400+ years?
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jesusmademe
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I am simply saying that the psychology of Martin Luther is sometimes forgotten.
We can’t just overlook it.
After all, his negative view of mankind must have come from somewhere. His heresies must have an origin somewhere. If he had been treated for his mental illness he might have stayed a good Catholic but we can never know.
We can’t just overlook it.
After all, his negative view of mankind must have come from somewhere. His heresies must have an origin somewhere. If he had been treated for his mental illness he might have stayed a good Catholic but we can never know.
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HopkinsReb
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This is exactly what I’m talking about. It’s a dangerous thing to play armchair psychologist. You can’t simply assume that the people who disagree with you do so because of a pathology.
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jesusmademe
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What do you mean? Are you saying that Luther didn’t have mebtal illnes or that this is unimportant? I say that this is very important. Feel free do dissagree.
Or I just missuderstood you.
I have never heard that term before.
Or I just missuderstood you.
I have never heard that term before.
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HopkinsReb
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I’m saying that we can’t diagnose a person with psychiatric disorders from 500 years away. I’m saying that doing so is a lazy intellectual crutch that pathologizes disagreement with you to get you out of having to argue against his actual arguments. I’m saying I don’t know if he had mental illness and nobody else really does, either. You see this silliness in politics sometimes, too, where a bunch of psychologists who don’t like a candidate start saying on TV shows and in articles that he has this or that psychological disorder without having ever been in the same room (started with Goldwater).
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Shasta-Rose
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I don’t think Luther meant to start a new church, initially. We learned about Luther in church, but in my case, that was 55 years ago. I forget how it came to start a new church, but that wasn’t his intent when he posted his theses.
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jesusmademe
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Ok, I understand you.
I still think psychology is important. Some people just argue instead trying to understand the person. You can’t solve everything with intelectual arguments. You need something more. You just wanna simplify stuff and I don’t like that.
Do you really believe that Luther would have come up with the exact same thinking if had not have psychological issues?
I am not saying that blaming everything on mentsl ilness is ok. But we must take it into consideration.
I still think psychology is important. Some people just argue instead trying to understand the person. You can’t solve everything with intelectual arguments. You need something more. You just wanna simplify stuff and I don’t like that.
Do you really believe that Luther would have come up with the exact same thinking if had not have psychological issues?
I am not saying that blaming everything on mentsl ilness is ok. But we must take it into consideration.
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HopkinsReb
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I’m not saying psych isn’t important. I’m saying there’s no way we can really diagnose Luther with mental problems from 450 years in the future.
This is what someone with poor intellectual arguments says.
It’s awfully simple to say “Luther was insane and that’s why he was a heretic!” It’s not simple to come up with good arguments against him.
I have no idea. I don’t assume that people who disagree with me are insane.
We really don’t have to.
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jesusmademe
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I am saying that if you have an issue with a Church teaching it is not always just an intelectual thing.
People who saythat we should only care about intelectual arguments are often bad a psychology. If people had understood Luther’s mental illness they could have guided him in a pastoral way.
People who think all we need is more arguments are not too smart. People need someone who listens to them and care about them. People need the faith explained.
People who saythat we should only care about intelectual arguments are often bad a psychology. If people had understood Luther’s mental illness they could have guided him in a pastoral way.
People who think all we need is more arguments are not too smart. People need someone who listens to them and care about them. People need the faith explained.
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HopkinsReb
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And I am saying that it’s not always a mental disorder, and you can’t assume that Luther had mental disorders.
People who say that those who disagree with them do so because of psychosis are often bad at intellectual arguments.
Begging the question. You simply take it for granted that he was a loon.
I’m done with this silly conversation. I’m simply going to assume that you have all manner of undiagnosed conditions that are causing your poor arguments, rather than assuming that you’re coming at this reasonably and in good faith. After all, it would be simplistic to simply assume that you’re bad at debating. I must take the refined, oh-so-intelligent approach of assuming instead that you’re insane.
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jesusmademe
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Ok, you have your views and I have mine.
I will assume that you havent read much about psychology at all. This could be wrong.
If you see all the problems in the Church as lack of intelectual arguments than feel free to do so. I don’t think you do that.
I will assume that you havent read much about psychology at all. This could be wrong.
If you see all the problems in the Church as lack of intelectual arguments than feel free to do so. I don’t think you do that.
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jesusmademe
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I am saying that we have a conscience. Our problems could be that we refuse to follow our conscience and form it. We could be confused due to Mental illness. We could be overthinking which isnt really a need for more thinking. He could have had personal issues that a good pastor and a good psychologist could have helped him deal with. I believe that it is simplistic to see Luther as a man who needed intelectual arguments. I often overthink stuff and the help is not always intelectual arguments but pastoral help.
I think having psychological issue could make you overthink stuff.
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HopkinsReb
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And I think that the fact that you disagree with me means that you clearly have psychological problems, so there’s no point in engaging intellectually.HopkinsReb:
I am saying that we have a conscience. Our problems could be that we refuse to follow our conscience and form it. We could be confused due to Mental illness. We could be overthinking which isnt really a need for more thinking. He could have had personal issues that a good pastor and a good psychologist could have helped him deal with. I believe that it is simplistic to see Luther as a man who needed intelectual arguments. I often overthink stuff and the help is not always intelectual arguments but pastoral help.
I think having psychological issue could make you overthink stuff.
See how this works?
I will assume you’ve read polemics about Luther written by Catholic apologists instead of Catholic theologians.
The doctrinal differences between Lutherans and Catholics are not based on the psychological or mental issues of significant theologians on either side.
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jesusmademe
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I dont think Protestantism is an intectual problem. Even if Protestants here about how Sola Scriptura is false not all become Catholic. I think Luther never left the Church due to intelectual problems. This is my opinion.
As soon as we go off on our opponents’ personality or quirks or imagined mental issues, we lose sight of the actual issue.JonNC:
It’s true you know.HopkinsReb:
That’s exactly what crazy Anglican would say!
Ok I’m done with this schtick.
It amounts to ad hominem attacks and it is regularly employed against Luther.
Thank you for your willingness to stand against it.
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