Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic

[po18guy]

Things are not always what they seem, but sometimes are.

Why do you seem willing to ignore a definitive, ‘from the Chair of Peter’ ruling on the man’s obstinate refusal to repent of heresy? Consider the continuing practice of doctrines which place millions of souls at risk.

Should the Church revise the documents of the Council of Trent to read "Now that he’s dead, we must not mention him or speak ill of his teachings?

Nonsense, I say.

Consider turning your accusation around.

This is no time to submit to the dictatorship of relativism, or to a false ecumenism which accepts dangerous doctrines as just another option for believers.

The entire point of ecumenism is to lead others to the truth.

Anyway, you will not be persuaded, so I’m out.

 

[steido01]

While I’m not sure I totally agree with you on #1, #2 tells me that you’re the sort of Roman Catholic we Lutherans can tolerate in discussions.

 

[steido01]

Oh, buddy. Might I suggest you never read what Luther’s Roman Catholic contemporaries like Eck, Cochleus and others had to say about Jews. Better to keep your innocence.

 

[steido01]

But I would also like to ask why do so few Lutherans correct the evangelicals that bash Catholics over the head with their misrepresentation of Luther?

We do. We’ve been doing it for 500 years. The Reformed tried to hijack Luther for their own purposes. In response, we wrote most of our Confessions in response to them, not Rome. It’s fascinating reading for anyone who cares to actually learn. Keep count of how many times the Lutheran Confessors write against the “Zwinglians,” “Anabaptists,” “Enthusiasts” and the like. Roman Catholics will be surprised to see more disagreement with Evangelicals than Rome.

 

[Randolph]

Steido01… Those were words written by Martin Luther himself. I trust that you reject and condemn Luther’s ferocious anti-Semitism.

Referring Jews as “feces of the devil” was particularly noticeable. Need you be reminded that our Lord, Jesus Christ, was a Jew. Our Holy Mother was also a Jew. So were most of the apostles…

Yes, there were (are and will be) ferocious anti-semites like Martin Luther, and they must be condemned just the same… “Buddy”.

 

[steve-b]

The answer is the same to both. The goal of Ecumenism is to end all the divisions from the Catholic Church.

JonNC:

And the Catholic Church from other Christian communions. Because division is always two-way.

steve-b:

You’re arguing from equality between contestants. Both aren’t equal.

There is only one Church, Jesus established on Peter and those in union with Peter. And Jesus wants perfect unity in His Church. The Catholic Church.

JonNC:

And that Church exists wherever people gather around word and sacrament.

Jesus made Peter the leader of the household of God on earth Matthew 16:16-19 , Luke 22:31-32 , John 21:15-19. And the household of God must be perfectly one, not only among the leadership, but also among those who come to faith through them. John 17:20-23 **There is zero room for division in what Jesus says thereThe Orthodox didn’t maintain that unity with Peter, and the Protestants no matter the stripe broke from Peter. As we know, Paul elsewhere said (i.e. the HS inspired Paul to say) division is condemned. Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21 Some translations use dissension, some use division, some use sedition. The Greek word is the same. διχοστασία dichostasia = dissension / sedition /division is the same word in both Rom 16:17… And Gal 5:19… therefore the consequences for the soul who divides and remains divided, they won’t inherit heaven. That’s coming from the HS through Paul. And we know where the HS is getting that information. It’s from Jesus John 16:12-15 Therefore, It goes without saying, for Peter to do the job Jesus commanded of him, all must be willing to be led by Peter open the link http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm . Obviously those who obey and remain united to Peter and those in union with him, are obeying the faith handed down once for all to the saints. Those who willingly don’t obey and remain so, reap a horrible consequence when they are ultimately judged by Jesus.

JonNC:

Peter is not limited to one see, anymore than Christ is.

Peter has authority over all sees. Just as Jesus established it in Peter’s office when He gave the keys to Peter.

JonNC:

The order of the keys, given first to Peter then to the rest for the entire Church is not exclusively in the control of the Bishop of Rome.

Oh yes it is, or people are ignoring what Jesus gave to Peter

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

Things are not always what they seem, but sometimes are.

Why do you seem willing to ignore a definitive, ‘from the Chair of Peter’ ruling on the man’s obstinate refusal to repent of heresy? Consider the continuing practice of doctrines which place millions of souls at risk.

Should the Church revise the documents of the Council of Trent to read "Now that he’s dead, we must not mention him or speak ill of his teachings?

Nonsense, I say.

Consider turning your accusation around.

This is no time to submit to the dictatorship of relativism, or to a false ecumenism which accepts dangerous doctrines as just another option for believers.

The entire point of ecumenism is to lead others to the truth.

Anyway, you will not be persuaded, so I’m out.

I actual admire the integrity of the Catholic Church for NOT lifting the excommunication or the finding of heresy. And the respect for integrity of Lutheran belief, rather than demanding that the Lutherans just simply fold their consciences up and submit. So I like the CATHOLIC ecumenical approach. I detest the abominable mockery of it being conducted on CAF, which seems to have become an echo chamber of anti-papal pseudo-Catholicism. I have read some real Catholic stuff, and I like the real deal (Vatican documents). Not what I see here.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

Or they find the Catholic claims less than compelling.

 

[steve-b]

Or they find the Catholic claims less than compelling.

Then they don’t know history

 

[steido01]

Of course I denounce his antisemitic works! Furthermore, I don’t know of a single Lutheran body that has not denounced them (On that note, I don’t believe I’ve ever seen the Roman Catholic Church denounce the antisemitic writings of Eck or Cochleus, though I’d love to be proven wrong). It should be noted, however, the distinction between anti-Jewish and antisemitic thought. One is against a religion, the other against a group of people. Most of Luther’s writings against Jews were the former. Sadly, he also engaged in the latter.

Keep in mind also he also wrote a tract titled, “Jesus Christ was Born a Jew.” People are right to denounce Luther’s bad works, but they’re just as wrong to overlook pieces like this. Luther called for something that, at the time, no other Catholic theologian did: humane treatment of Jews.

This is what is meant by Luther-bashing. It’s when people present only one side, and not the other to continue a caricature or trope that fits their narrative.

 

[JonNC]

Most of my responses are backed up by Church links, NOT my opinions but Church links. NONE of them are squishy on the subject matter.

Links from which part of His true Church?
That’s the point, and it may be unresolvable between us.
I guess my question is what part of the Catholic practice of ecumenism is squishy and who is to blame ?

 

[JonNC]

Peter has authority over all sees. Just as Jesus established it in Peter’s office when He gave the keys to Peter.

But the Bishop of Rome does not

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

Of course I denounce his antisemitic works! Furthermore, I don’t know of a single Lutheran body that has not denounced them (On that note, I don’t believe I’ve ever seen the Roman Catholic Church denounce the antisemitic writings of Eck or Cochleus, though I’d love to be proven wrong). It should be noted, however, the distinction between anti-Jewish and antisemitic thought. One is against a religion, the other against a group of people. Most of Luther’s writings against Jews were the former. Sadly, he also engaged in the latter.

Keep in mind also he also wrote a tract titled, “Jesus Christ was Born a Jew.” People are right to denounce Luther’s bad works, but they’re just as wrong to overlook pieces like this. Luther called for something that, at the time, no other Catholic theologian did: humane treatment of Jews.

This is what is meant by Luther-bashing. It’s when people present only one side, and not the other to continue a caricature or trope that fits their narrative.

This is well written, better put that I have done.

I deplore a lot of what Luther wrote.

One reason the approach of Luther-bashing will not work is the concept of Simultaneously Justified and Simultaneously a Sinner (usually written in Latin). Lutherans readily admit Luther said all kinds of terrible things (the sinner). He also wrote some good stuff. Catholics do not understand the Lutheran concept of justification, so they think if they show how bad Luther was, Lutherans will abandon him. It won’t work that way, for that reason, and also because they really don’t consider him as the one they are following. They are following Christ. Lutherans do not look at Luther as if he is some kind of faultless Messiah, an unimpeachable prophet, Moses or anyone else. So these attacks will fail. Catholics, you are wasting your time trying to bring him down. Lutherans say “Yeah - we knew that already.”

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

steve-b:

Most of my responses are backed up by Church links, NOT my opinions but Church links. NONE of them are squishy on the subject matter.

Links from which part of His true Church?
That’s the point, and it may be unresolvable between us.
I guess my question is what part of the Catholic practice of ecumenism is squishy and who is to blame ?

I assume you missed some of my earlier posts. @steve-b, are you in complete Catholic submission to the current Pope, and the Magisterium, in everything, and in particular to its ecumenical efforts?

 

[theCardinalbird]

But the Bishop of Rome does not

The Bishop of Rome is the successor of Peter

 

[JonNC]

I assume you missed some of my earlier posts. @steve-b, are you in complete Catholic submission to the current Pope, and the Magisterium, in everything, and in particular to its ecumenical efforts?

Of course not. He has jurisdiction only over the bishops and sees that choose to be in communion with him. That’s a fine choice for them, but my bishop does not choose to be.

Oops. You meant the question for Steve. I’ll leave my answer stand, though.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

But the Bishop of Rome does not

The Bishop of Rome is the successor of Peter

He’s one of them.

 

[steido01]

One reason the approach of Luther-bashing will not work is the concept of Simultaneously Justified and Simultaneously a Sinner (usually written in Latin). Lutherans readily admit Luther said all kinds of terrible things (the sinner). He also wrote some good stuff. Catholics do not understand the Lutheran concept of justification, so they think if they show how bad Luther was, Lutherans will abandon him. It won’t work that way, for that reason, and also because they really don’t consider him as the one they are following. They are following Christ. Lutherans do not look at Luther as if he is some kind of faultless Messiah, an unimpeachable prophet, Moses or anyone else. So these attacks will fail. Catholics, you are wasting your time trying to bring him down. Lutherans say “Yeah - we knew that already.”

Bingo.

The Lutheran will only be solidified further in his faith, knowing that the same mercy applied to a sinner like Luther can be applied to an even greater sinner like him/herself.

Experienced Roman Catholics understand this, and stay away from 1. Luther-bashing and 2. Begging the Authority Question. Instead, they focus on an actual reading of the Fathers and Councils with regard to Justification. While this ‘historical’ argument isn’t so black and white, it’s the only one that will penetrate a Lutheran’s ears, since many of the early councils can be read either way. Then, it’s simply a matter of discussing historical facts-- a discussion in which both sides are happy to take part, and which each considers itself to be in the right.

 

[theCardinalbird]

He’s one of them.

Who?

(16 characters)

 

[steve-b]

I have read some real Catholic stuff, and I like the real deal (Vatican documents). Not what I see here.

From Vat II paragraph 14, from Lumen Gentium http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

tucked in with all the ecumenical language is this paragraph

(all emphasis mine)

"14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved**.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not "in his heart."(12*) All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)"

Note:

"Whosorever applies to everyone, not just Catholics

Charity is giving people the unvarnished truth. If I for example disguise the truth with a lot of squishy half truth and nonsense, that comes back on me. I’m not willing to have that happen