What do any of them have to do with the Catholic Church’s handling of ecumenism?JonNC:
Take you pick of names. Catholics who left the Church. Catholics who lost their ability to teach in Catholic schools because of their views, etc etc
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steve-b
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People who are Catholics also represent the Church in word and action. Ecumenism and evangelization are two sides of the same coin.steve-b:
What do any of them have to do with the Catholic Church’s handling of ecumenism?JonNC:
Take you pick of names. Catholics who left the Church. Catholics who lost their ability to teach in Catholic schools because of their views, etc etc
But the laity doesn’t speak for the Church. They do not operate the PCPCU. That’s the Vatican.
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steve-b
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Just as I don’t read every ones posts I don’t expect anyone to read any or all my posts. This post is to your point Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic - #109 by steve-bsteve-b:
But the laity doesn’t speak for the Church. They do not operate the PCPCU. That’s the Vatican.
It references Lumen Gentium from Vat II.
Note: cutting to the chase
From Lumen Gentium paragraph 14 (all emphasis mine)
“Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition,…Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved”
- Whosoever covers everyone, not just Catholics
- Knowledge is key. Ergo all Catholics have the responsibility to teach others the truth of what the Church teaches, and give all the source materials "properly referenced". One is not responsible for not winning someone over. Just that the truth and knowledge is given properly referenced.
Baptism is to bring one into the Catholic Church. There is no other Church that Jesus established. The Catholic Church, "the Church throughout all, according to the whole, universal " i.e. the “kataholos Church” [Acts 9:31] From the Greek study bible.
ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς
ἐκκλησία = church http://bibleapps.com/greek/1577.htm ,
καθ’ = according to http://bibleapps.com/greek/2596.htm ,
ὅλης = whole / all / complete / universal http://bibleapps.com/greek/3650.htm ,
τῆς = the http://bibleapps.com/greek/3588.htm
What happens if one divides, causes division, leaves, won’t return to this Church?
Romans 16:17-20 # SEARCH rom 16
consequences for one who divides or causes division
Galatians 5:19-21 # SEARCH gal 5
both quotes use the same Greek word [διχοστασίαι,] for dissension / division /schism [http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm] And the consequence for that sin if one won’t return to the Catholic Church? Paul says “I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God”. IOW they go to hell when they die
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You haven’t cut to the chase. You’ve dodged the question, over and over. Sometime back you made an accusation about squishy ecumenism. You were clearly talking about the Catholic Church side of ecumenism.
I’ve asked a simple question: which Catholic Church officials have been squishy?
Please give me a name and how they have been squishy.
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steve-b
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I’m not the only one who sees it. http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/the-death-of-dialoguesteve-b:
You haven’t cut to the chase. You’ve dodged the question, over and over. Sometime back you made an accusation about squishy ecumenism. You were clearly talking about the Catholic Church side of ecumenism.
I’ve asked a simple question: which Catholic Church officials have been squishy?
Please give me a name and how they have been squishy.
in addition
8 things to avoid http://www.ncregister.com/blog/msgr-pope/8-modern-errors-every-catholic-should-know-and-avoid
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Sees what, Steve? I don’t care what the Catholic Register says. I’m asking you. Who in the Catholic hierarchy is squishy?JonNC:
I’m not the only one who sees it. http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/the-death-of-dialoguesteve-b:
You haven’t cut to the chase. You’ve dodged the question, over and over. Sometime back you made an accusation about squishy ecumenism. You were clearly talking about the Catholic Church side of ecumenism.
I’ve asked a simple question: which Catholic Church officials have been squishy?
Please give me a name and how they have been squishy.
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steve-b
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That link from the Register, was from a priest I admire. And I didn’t limit this to the hierarchy. And I reserve naming namessteve-b:
Sees what, Steve? I don’t care what the Catholic Register says. I’m asking you. Who in the Catholic hierarchy is squishy?JonNC:
I’m not the only one who sees it. http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/the-death-of-dialoguesteve-b:
You haven’t cut to the chase. You’ve dodged the question, over and over. Sometime back you made an accusation about squishy ecumenism. You were clearly talking about the Catholic Church side of ecumenism.
I’ve asked a simple question: which Catholic Church officials have been squishy?
Please give me a name and how they have been squishy.
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steve-b
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It’s not the right time or place to name names
Oh, I don’t know. They’re public figures in leadership positions.
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SojournerOnEarth
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@steve-b what about Called to Communion, written by then-Cardinal Ratzinger? Was that squishy? What about the ecumenical service between the Lutherans and the Catholics at Lund? Was THAT squishy? If so, what is squishy?
Are any popes or bishops on your list of people who are squishy in ecumenism?
I think we would like to understand what you mean when you say something is “squishy”. It sounds vague.
I agree with @JonNC. You are dodging. Why?
Are any popes or bishops on your list of people who are squishy in ecumenism?
I think we would like to understand what you mean when you say something is “squishy”. It sounds vague.
I agree with @JonNC. You are dodging. Why?
Well, @steve-b said he thought it inappropriate to mention names, but you ask a good question regarding Called to Communion. Add to that the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.
Some Lutherans thought the Lutheran partners were squishy on the JDDJ.
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SojournerOnEarth
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Interestingly enough, some Presbyterians signed on to the JDDJ. Others I think want to burn it. I think the Presbyterian range is wider than the Lutheran in terms of its response to the Catholic Church. And there the accusation by some Reformed that it is squishy. Well, from what I have read, there is substance to that criticism. It is amazing enough to me that we have managed any sort of agreement at all. This is in total contrast to the pre-Vatican 2 “ecumenism” which consisted of hurling insults in either direction.SojournerOnEarth:
Well, @steve-b said he thought it inappropriate to mention names, but you ask a good question regarding Called to Communion. Add to that the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.
Some Lutherans thought the Lutheran partners were squishy on the JDDJ.
In large measure, we have Pope John XXIII and following for that change in dialogue. In a small number on both sides it sadly has not made it to the apologetics part.
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SojournerOnEarth
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Yep. I am, in my small way, trying to figure out how we the Reformed should respond to these overtures. I think of the lines in the Lord of the Rings where Gimli looked into Galadriel’s eyes and saw the eyes of a friend. May our long enmity come to an end.SojournerOnEarth:
In large measure, we have Pope John XXIII and following for that change in dialogue. In a small number on both sides it sadly has not made it to the apologetics part.
Indeed, and when we find it hard to take each other’s hand, let’s agree to take the Spirit’s hand to guide us
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steve-b
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To JonNC and SojournerOnEarthSojournerOnEarth:
Indeed, and when we find it hard to take each other’s hand, let’s agree to take the Spirit’s hand to guide us
Once someone knows the truth, which is NOT hard to see, when properly referenced, then they can’t unknow that truth. One can’t walk away from that truth. That’s what Lumen Gentium is saying… going back to scripture, meaning it won’t change,
This is repeating what I already gave you Jon. Ecumenism can’t change this nor can evangelization. Back on post Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic - #147 by steve-b
And where that message goes wrong, (squishy) is when people introduce 8 errors I gave as a link, 8 things to avoid http://www.ncregister.com/blog/msgr-pope/8-modern-errors-every-catholic-should-know-and-avoid. May I suggest errors 3-6 on the list is what I’m particularly referring to.
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Randolph
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It is a good thing that the Catholic Church dialogue with non-Catholics. V2 clearly spells this out. In the eyes of the Church, the ultimate goal of ecumenism, as it relates to the mission of the Church, is to evangelize and to guide non-Catholics to the truth of Christ and the Church. That goal can not be distorted as members of the Church engage in discussions with non-Catholics. The Church embraces the papacy, the 7 sacraments, Scriptures and the Magisterium; while vehemently rejects heresies, universalism and pantheism.
By the way, you know so well that it’s against CAF rules to criticize catholic clergy. CAF members had been either suspended, or banned, for such behavior. Administrators of this forum have repeatedly warned its members to exercise great restraints on this matter. When Steve-b said he wanted to reserve privilege to name names, take it as a sign that he wanted to honor that. To bait him into that trap is quite unbecoming.
Throughout the history of the Church, there were those in the hierarchy that advocated heresies, universalism and pantheism. That won’t change, and the promise of Christ protecting the Church—His bride—will prevail once again.
By the way, you know so well that it’s against CAF rules to criticize catholic clergy. CAF members had been either suspended, or banned, for such behavior. Administrators of this forum have repeatedly warned its members to exercise great restraints on this matter. When Steve-b said he wanted to reserve privilege to name names, take it as a sign that he wanted to honor that. To bait him into that trap is quite unbecoming.
Throughout the history of the Church, there were those in the hierarchy that advocated heresies, universalism and pantheism. That won’t change, and the promise of Christ protecting the Church—His bride—will prevail once again.
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SojournerOnEarth
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No baiting is intended. I would like him to back up his statements. He seems to be setting himself against the hierarchy . He will not say that he accepts the Joint Declaration or Called to Common, but just harps on a certain passage from Lumen Gentium that is actually informed by other documents. He could come out with a clear statement that he is submission to the ecumenical efforts of the Catholic Church and accepts everything that it teaches on this subject, but…crickets.
He has the opportunity to explain himself.
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