Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic

[steve-b]

Randolph:

It is a good thing that the Catholic Church dialogue with non-Catholics. V2 clearly spells this out. In the eyes of the Church, the ultimate goal of ecumenism, as it relates to the mission of the Church, is to evangelize and to guide non-Catholics to the truth of Christ and the Church. That goal can not be distorted as members of the Church engage in discussions with non-Catholics. The Church embraces the papacy, the 7 sacraments, Scriptures and the Magisterium; while vehemently rejects heresies, universalism and pantheism.

By the way, you know so well that it’s against CAF rules to criticize catholic clergy. CAF members had been either suspended, or banned, for such behavior. Administrators of this forum have repeatedly warned its members to exercise great restraints on this matter. When Steve-b said he wanted to reserve privilege to name names, take it as a sign that he wanted to honor that. To bait him into that trap is quite unbecoming.

Throughout the history of the Church, there were those in the hierarchy that advocated heresies, universalism and pantheism. That won’t change, and the promise of Christ protecting the Church—His bride—will prevail once again.

No baiting is intended. I would like him to back up his statements. He seems to be setting himself against the hierarchy . He will not say that he accepts the Joint Declaration or Called to Common, but just harps on a certain passage from Lumen Gentium that is actually informed by other documents. He could come out with a clear statement that he is submission to the ecumenical efforts of the Catholic Church and accepts everything that it teaches on this subject, but…crickets.

He has the opportunity to explain himself.

The paragraph I quoted from

1. Paragraph 14 from Lumen Gentium, is the goal of evangelization and ecumenism.
2. I explained myself in post Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic - #167 by steve-b Note the article I quoted from was from Msgr. Charles Pope http://www.ncregister.com/blog/msgr-pope

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

Are you willing to just come out and say that you accept the Joint Declaration, Called to Communion, and other Vatican documents and that you are in complete submission to the papacy in its ecumenical efforts? A simple yes or no will do.

 

[steve-b]

Are you willing to just come out and say that you accept the Joint Declaration,

We (Lutherans and Catholics) agree on Justification

SojournerOnEarth:

Called to Communion,

Of course we are called to communion. So why hasn’t it happened in 500 years? Has the last 50 years produced the success looked for? I would suggest, NO.

SojournerONEarth:

and other Vatican documents and that you are in complete submission to the papacy in its ecumenical efforts? A simple yes or no will do.

I am submissive to the papacy. That has been the teaching of the Church from the beginning. We are to be not just one in a squishy sense, but “perfectly one” as Jesus commanded

BTW, you didn’t respond to this post Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic - #167 by steve-b

 

[steve-b]

Okay. It just seems to me like an empty accusation without names attached, but I understand

I gave you an answer. While I don’t name names, I got specific. You didn’t respond Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic - #147 by steve-b

 

[josh987654321]

Luther-bashing serves to widen and deepen the wounds in the body of Christ.

No, one must speak the truth about Luther, if someone wants to take that as Luther Bashing, then so be it, without the truth there will be no conversion nor unity.

They further division and scandal in the church by these actions

No, if you follow Luther then you are already divided and divorced from the Church.

Two-Minute Hate or there is a private devotion of We Hate Martin Luther.

Nobody should hate Martin Luther or any of his followers, but we should hate his errors and we should try to evangelize them back to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I wonder if Catholics who engage in this behavior are simply ignorant as to how out of line they are with the Church

No.

or if they know it and are defiantly trashing Luther, knowing full well the Church disapproves.

If the Church approves of Luther, what are they doing being Catholic?

Which is it? Ignorance or defiance?

Neither.

And why do so few Catholics correct the Luther bashers?

Because we are Catholics, not Lutherans. We don’t agree with Luther, if it’s a method of evangelization you take issue with that is fine, but if you want us to embrace Luther, then that is not ever going to happen, Luther left and did not return, if you want to return you must let Luther go.

Thank you for reading.

 

[josh987654321]

A simple yes or no will do.

No!

The 500th anniversary thing was a scandal. Notice they used the word ‘commemorate’ not ‘celebrate or approve’ the fact it was done on his 500th anniversary and with Protestants who celebrate Martin Luther, makes it highly scandalous and unfortunately several Catholics have fallen into error over this terrible scandal.

Thank you for reading.

 

[theCardinalbird]

I’m sure we can say that what Martin Luther did should be condemned.

quick question. Is the Church justifying Luther’s decision? If so, then that would mean the Church is justifying a split in the Church. If the Church is not justifying Luther’s decision, but rather seeks reconciliation, then that would mean we should help heal the wound. Luther took them out of the Church, we must bring them back.

 

[JonNC]

No, one must speak the truth about Luther, if someone wants to take that as Luther Bashing, then so be it, without the truth there will be no conversion nor unity.

Actually, since the new CAF format, we’ve seen lots of Luther bashing, lots of instances of Luther’s words taken out of context, quoted in snippets, and isolated for the era in order to provide a false atmosphere around his words.
For example, when one criticizes Luther’s later anti-Judaic writings without placing them next to the numerous Catholic anti-Judaic writings robs thee reading of an honest context. Both are to be condemned, to be sure, but it is disingenuous to reference one without the other.

No, if you follow Luther then you are already divided and divorced from the Church.

Nonsense.

Nobody should hate Martin Luther or any of his followers, but we should hate his errors and we should try to evangelize them back to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

And you do that by claiming they are not of His Church. That’s a formula that has worked so well over the last 450 years?

 

[JonNC]

I’m sure we can say that what Martin Luther did should be condemned.

quick question. Is the Church justifying Luther’s decision? If so, then that would mean the Church is justifying a split in the Church. If the Church is not justifying Luther’s decision, but rather seeks reconciliation, then that would mean we should help heal the wound. Luther took them out of the Church, we must bring them back.

I’ve never seen that. I have seen the Catholic Church recognize blame on both sides, however.

 

[theCardinalbird]

I’ve never seen that

seen what?

 

[JonNC]

SojournerOnEarth:

A simple yes or no will do.

No!

The 500th anniversary thing was a scandal. Notice they used the word ‘commemorate’ not ‘celebrate or approve’ the fact it was done on his 500th anniversary and with Protestants who celebrate Martin Luther, makes it highly scandalous and unfortunately several Catholics have fallen into error over this terrible scandal.

Thank you for reading.

Yeah, some of them in the Vatican. Interesting.

Question, do you approve or disapprove of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification and From conflict to Communion?

 

[JonNC]

Is the Church justifying Luther’s decision?

seen what?

The Catholic Church justifying Luther’s decision.

 

[Randolph]

Amen… I pray that all souls, including my own, constantly seek reconciliation to Christ and to the Church.

 

[KathleenT]

Not all of them do know about Luther already. My college roommate went into a mini-crisis for weeks which she found out some of the things Luther wrote. I was floored that she was unaware of that. So, pointing out those things are important on the individual level.

And as part of the laity, that’s who I am concerned with: individuals. I can not convert people, the a Holy Spirit converts people. I do not need to defend the Holy Catholic Church. She has the fullness of the faith and can defend herself. I merely speak the truth and encourage people to learn more and explore the faith. I am convinced if they do so with a open and honest heart they will find their answers.

So think about your question from my perspective. You are basically saying you are trying to figure out how to respond to the Catholic Church based on how some of the latity behave? That sounds a bit absurd. Either the Catholic Church holds the truth or it does not. The behavior of the sinners in the church (aka all of us) has nothing to do with the soundness of the Church’s teachings.

We all are working on becoming saints. Some of us are further along than others. And just because you dislike or believe some behavior is ineffective doesn’t mean it is true. Different people respond to different things, what is Luther bashing to you, was a moment of enlightenment to my roommate. (No, I didn’t tell her…I thought she already knew.)

 

[guanophore]

Are you willing to just come out and say that you accept the Joint Declaration, Called to Communion, and other Vatican documents and that you are in complete submission to the papacy in its ecumenical efforts? A simple yes or no will do.

Yes, but I don’t think this question was directed to me.

Luther left and did not return,

We can’t know the condition of his heart before he went to judgment. I have read that he continued to pray his rosary even to his deathbed, and that he regretted how much division was created by his work. He certainly was dismayed that the Calvanists and followers of Zwingi rejected the Real Presence.

 

[josh987654321]

Both are to be condemned, to be sure, but it is disingenuous to reference one without the other.

Okay, I was thinking more his 95 thesis one of which condemning transubstantiation.

Nonsense.

Not nonsense, true, very true.

And you do that by claiming they are not of His Church.

They are not, Luther is not part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and if you wish to be one with us, you must let go of Luther, he left the Catholic Church and encouraged his followers to do likewise, I don’t know whether he regretted it or repented or whatever on his deathbed, but one must let Luther go in order to return home to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, There. Is. No. Other. Way!

Anything else is a lie and a false sense of unity.

And you do that by claiming they are not of His Church. That’s a formula that has worked so well over the last 450 years?

It doesn’t matter how it has worked, it matters whether it is true. Luther did not return to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, if you follow him, then neither have you and nor will you as long as you follow Luther.

I’ve never seen that. I have seen the Catholic Church recognize blame on both sides, however.

Then you should have no problem letting Luther go and returning home to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?

Question, do you approve or disapprove of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification and From conflict to Communion?

Haven’t read them, but on the face of it there is a good chance I would not approve, we are not in communion with Lutherans some of whom have female clergy for starters, not to mention celebrating and following Martin Luther.

We may have similarities and several things we agree on, and that is good, but we are not one unfortunately, you would need to let Luther go in order for that to happen, or I would have to accept Luther, which I will never do, and if anyone in the Catholic Church does so and claims to be still Catholic, then they would become hypocrites.

The Catholic Church justifying Luther’s decision.

Luther’s decision is not justifiable, in order to somehow ‘justify it’ they would become hypocrites.

Thank you for reading.

God Bless

 

[josh987654321]

We can’t know the condition of his heart before he went to judgment.

True, but we do know he did not return to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and neither did his followers, thus there can be no unity until they let Luther go and thus convert home back to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Thank you for reading.

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

What a great image! I never thought of that. But I think it is not Martin Luther that causes this. Perhaps his vehement anti-papal attitude has persisted and spread, but the root I think for the spawning is Sola Scriptura. Once each person makes themselves their own pope, there are as many interpretations as there are belly buttons.

 

[deMontfort]

In fairness, though, a lot of those Fundamentalist Baptist churches are Arminian, not Calvinist.

 

[deMontfort]

It’s complicated, but Arminianism rejects the Calvinist conceptions of predestinations while some adherents (not all) embrace OSAS. See Charles Stanley for a good example.