Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic

[SojournerOnEarth]

Hardly. Your provided statements. I am inferring something and I am asking you a question to clarify. You could say “yes” or “no”.

The fact that you refuse to answer tells me that you are in favor of the church torturing and killing heretics.

You have a bad habit of dodging answers.

 

[Vonsalza]

So you think the church should torture and burn heretics.

As John Calvin taught us when he burned Servetus, we shouldn’t burn anyone. It’s a bad thing to do.

 

[steve-b]

Hardly. I am asking you a question. You could say “yes” or “no”.

The fact that you refuse to answer tells me that you are in favor of the church torturing and killing heretics.

You accused me without evidence Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic - #403 by SojournerOnEarth

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

SojournerOnEarth:

Hardly. I am asking you a question. You could say “yes” or “no”.

The fact that you refuse to answer tells me that you are in favor of the church torturing and killing heretics.

You accused me without evidence Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic - #403 by SojournerOnEarth

Simply not true. Why don’t you simply say you don’t believe heretics should be tortured and burned?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

SojournerOnEarth:

Hardly. I am asking you a question. You could say “yes” or “no”.

The fact that you refuse to answer tells me that you are in favor of the church torturing and killing heretics.

You accused me without evidence Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic - #403 by SojournerOnEarth

Simply not true.

Absolutely true.

Who is it that burns heretics or all the other corrupt people? I gave quotes properly referenced. Open any of the links. Who is it that burns them?

. Matthew 18:8 RSVCE - And if your hand or your foot causes - Bible Gateway

. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:41&version=RSVCE

. Jude 1:7 RSVCE - just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the - Bible Gateway

SojournerOnEarth:

Why don’t you simply say you don’t believe heretics should be tortured and burned?

Read again who makes that judgement.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Pope Benedict is transparently clear when he went to visit the home of Martin Luther, in Erfurt. He said:

Naturally faith today has to be thought out afresh, and above all lived afresh, so that it is suited to the present day. Yet it is not by watering the faith down, but by living it today in its fullness that we achieve this. This is a key ecumenical task in which we have to help one another : developing a deeper and livelier faith. It is not strategy that saves us and saves Christianity, but faith – thought out and lived afresh; through such faith, Christ enters this world of ours, and with him, the living God. As the martyrs of the Nazi era brought us together and prompted that great initial ecumenical opening, so today, faith that is lived from deep within amid a secularized world is the most powerful ecumenical force that brings us together, guiding us towards unity in the one Lord. And we pray to him, asking that we may learn to live the faith anew, and that in this way we may then become one.

We, specifically as Catholics, MUST be helped by our Reformed sisters and brothers in order to live as disciples of Christ, for Catholics and non-Catholic Christians must “learn to live the faith anew”

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Pope Francis, on the occasion of the Chair of Unity Octave in 2017:

On this path, we Catholics and Lutherans, from several countries, together with various communities sharing our ecumenical journey, reached a significant step when, on 31 October last, we gathered together in Lund, Sweden, to commemorate through common prayer the beginning of the Reformation. This joint commemoration of the Reformation was important on both the human and theological-spiritual levels. After fifty years of official ecumenical dialogue between Catholics and Lutherans, we have succeeded in clearly articulating points of view which today we agree on. For this we are grateful. At the same time we keep alive in our hearts sincere contrition for our faults. In this spirit, we recalled in Lund that the intention of Martin Luther five hundred years ago was to renew the Church, not divide her. The gathering there gave us the courage and strength, in our Lord Jesus Christ, to look ahead to the ecumenical journey that we are called to walk together.

In preparing the common commemoration of the Reformation, Catholics and Lutherans noted with greater awareness that theological dialogue remains essential for reconciliation and that it is advanced through steadfast commitment. Thus, in that communion of harmony which permits the Holy Spirit to act, we will be able to find further convergence on points of doctrine and the moral teaching of the Church, and will be able to draw ever closer to full and visible unity. I pray to the Lord that he may bestow his blessing on the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue Commission in Finland, which is working diligently towards a common sacramental understanding of the Church, the Eucharist and ecclesial ministry.

This expresses the judgment of the Holy See in the wake of Vatican II, which completely re-oriented our view and relations with other Churches and Ecclesial Communities and led to a complete re-evaluation – not only of methodology but of previous historical conclusions that have now been jettisoned.

We embrace Martin Luther as “Witness of Jesus Christ”, a title for him which was proclaimed in 1983, specifically on the occasion of the 500th anniversary.

We are blessed to live in these times, after the Second Vatican Council.

 

[luisvera]

I believe we indeed need to bring lutherans back in, and hey, to be fair, not everything in lutheranism is incompatible with catholicism, and they are (or were) much “closer” to catholicism than other more “reformed” protestants denominations, that all being said is lip servicing Luther aka a public rebel against the Church, to say the very very very least, the right way to go? Sure there may be some things in his thoughts that are rescuable, but still, let’s not pretend the Church honors or respects or oughts to honor and respect Luther cause that’s just misrepresenting things

 

[guanophore]

Why don’t you simply say you don’t believe heretics should be tortured and burned?

I think because he believes they should be. Perhaps, like the medieval authorities, he is ready to hold the match to the pyre? It is God’s will, is it not?

 

[steve-b]

SojournerOnEarth:

Why don’t you simply say you don’t believe heretics should be tortured and burned?

I think because he believes they should be. Perhaps, like the medieval authorities, he is ready to hold the match to the pyre? It is God’s will, is it not?

I think you should read what is actually said

As I posted Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic - #411 by steve-b
Who is it that burns evil ones ?

. Matthew 18:8 RSVCE - And if your hand or your foot causes - Bible Gateway

. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:41&version=RSVCE

. Jude 1:7 RSVCE - just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the - Bible Gateway

 

[guanophore]

I think you should read what is actually said

As I posted Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic

Who is it that burns evil ones ?

. Matthew 18:8 RSVCE - And if your hand or your foot causes - Bible Gateway
Matthew 18:8 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin,[a] cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Ok so you don’t really want them burned, just for their hands and feet to be separated from their bodies?

. Matthew 25:41 RSVCE - Then he will say to those at his left - Bible Gateway

Matthew 25:41 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

So you are not in favor of heretics being burned in this life, since they will be burned in the next?

. Jude 1:7 RSVCE - just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the - Bible Gateway

Jude 7 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
7 just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

It seems that you are classifying Protestants with those who are immoral and indulge in unnatural list, and therefore, they are deserving of eternal fire?

None of these verses addresses the question “do you think heretics should be burned”. They all are referencing what will happen at the judgment. Do you believe this judgment should occur immediately? Do you want to start the pyre for the eternal fires now, so God can keep it burning for an eternity?

 

[steve-b]

So you are not in favor of heretics being burned in this life, since they will be burned in the next?

good grief.

Here’s some history .

the Lateran Council in 1215, pronouncement on the “extermination” of heretics, Internet History Sourcebooks Project canon 3, (exterminate) comes from the Latin exterminare, William Whitaker's Words which means to “drive out” (ex- out of + terminous- boundary). In Latin it does nor mean to destroy or kill, but to drive out of the territory. The official language of the Church is Latin. The Church does not and did not change her position on this issue of capital punishment and has been consistent on the issue… Even pope Francis today is speaking out against capital punishment and there being no good reason for it…

Is that simple enough for you ? That is the Catholic Church official teaching and position on the subject. Need I say, that date does not show a new understanding for the Church.

guanophore:

. Jude 1:7 RSVCE - just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the - Bible Gateway

Jude 7 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
7 just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

It seems that you are classifying Protestants with those who are immoral and indulge in unnatural list, and therefore, they are deserving of eternal fire?

1. Protestantism is a heresy. The Great Heresies | Catholic Answers
2. who said heresy is condemned? St Paul
   Heresy / divisive./ schism αἱρετικὸν , http://bibleapps.com/greek/141.htm , Titus 3:10-11, Tit3:10-11 RSVCE - As for a man who is factious, after - Bible Gateway IOW
   definition: one who is disposed to form sects, heresies, schisms etc.

The consequences? Paul says to Bp Titus, “After admonishing such a person once or twice, have nothing more to do with them, They are perverted, and sinful, That person is self condemned.”

guanophore:

None of these verses addresses the question “do you think heretics should be burned”. They all are referencing what will happen at the judgment. Do you believe this judgment should occur immediately? Do you want to start the pyre for the eternal fires now, so God can keep it burning for an eternity?

Particular Judgement happens every second of every day for people who die. Particular Judgment Versus Final Judgment | Catholic Answers

Supposedly ~ 160,000 people die every day. For them there is no tomorrow. No yesterday. only eternity. No clock. Just the eternal now. To your question, Those who die today and are judged for hell, go to hell the moment they die… to the eternal fire.

 

[guanophore]

good grief.

So you think that all the heretics should be “driven out”? From where, and to where? Are you now saying that you do NOT support heretics being burned in this life?

Is that simple enough for you ?

I am still confused why you have not been able to clearly state that you do not support the burning of heretics, but I guess this is as close as you can get?

Paul says to Bp Titus, “After admonishing such a person once or twice, have nothing more to do with them, They are perverted, and sinful, That person is self condemned.”

Which begs the question, why do you even interact with “heretics” here on CAF? You have traded posts with many of them much more than “once or twice”. It is clear that some of them are not at all interested or responsive to your “admonishing” so it is curious that you continue to drive in the tent stakes.

Particular Judgement happens every second of every day for people who die. Particular Judgment Versus Final Judgment | Catholic Answers

Yes, we are in agreement on this point. But you did not answer the question.Do you think that heretics should be set on fire right now, so that you can get a jump start on the eternal fire?

 

[guanophore]

The topic title seems a bit counter-intuitive… Luther is Anti-Catholic, or was, and so opposing him would be Catholic, not Anti-Catholic? Don’t they cancel eachother out? Bashing the Anti-Catholic is Anti-Catholic?

Yes, it does seem that way at first. But Luther did not start as “anti-catholic”. Rather, he believed that the purity and simplicity of the Gospel had been obscured by bishops enslaved to the flesh.

Did you know that the use of the now famous phrase “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.” by John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton (1834–1902) was expressed in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton in 1887, about the Bishopric?

There was so much corruption, attachment to secularism, power, and greed that any person who was an authentic witness to the Gospel would cringe.

In the end he did reject not only the authority of the Bishops, including the Bishop of Rome, but other essential elements as well, such as the Sacrifice of the Mass. But it was never his intention to start his own Church.

I’m not for physical bashing, or telling untruths, but we still haven’t defined bashing on this thread. If we mean opposing him and his heresy,

There is a difference between opposing a person, and opposing a heresy. From where we stand, it is easy to “oppose”, criticize, and “bash”. It is 20/20 hindsight. Not all of what Luther believed and taught was heresy. We have more in common with traditional Lutherans than we do with most Protestants.

I don’t think that’s so bad.

We need to serve that which promote unity and healing in the Body of Christ. “Opposition” is not neccessarily conducive to healing or unity.We cannot ignore the differences, but we don’t need to focus on them to the exclusion of that which unifies us.

 

[guanophore]

Can you substantiate this, at least the Catholics writing part? The only thing on this thread that has been posted were a measly two obscure quotes from Eck that were not ‘the same in anti-semitic diatribe.

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/chrysostom_adversus_judaeos_01_homily1.htm

 

[AugustTherese]

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/chrysostom_adversus_judaeos_01_homily1.htm

“This material was uploaded by Roger Pearse, Ipswich, UK, 2011, and derives from a translation of unknown origin formerly hosted at the Medieval Sourcebook” … um, yeah…

 

[anon65111186]

There was so much corruption, attachment to secularism, power, and greed that any person who was an authentic witness to the Gospel would cringe

There was corruption and enslavement to the flesh, but when was it not so? And when we measure him by the same standards even he is not above reproach “Why do I sit soaked in wine? … To be continent and chaste is not in me”

There is no need to hold back from telling the truth about Luther and his acts, this will not damage the unity of Christians, since the truth will set you free, and allow us to evaluate the whole situation.

opposing a person, and opposing a heresy

Okay, so hate the sin not the sinner, I get that, but Luther in his person is closely intertwined directly with the heresy of the past 500 years, whether that heresy is the same as the current heresy or not. Many professional scholars would say he was a big part in the rise of Protestantism.

We cannot ignore the differences, but we don’t need to focus on them to the exclusion of that which unifies us.

Sure, but I think the picture Protestants get of Luther is not the whole story, just the bright and sunny side, when there is certainly a dark underbelly which influenced his heresy and even the Bible.

Just as we should know and even speak out against those in the Church that are corrupt and so forth, so should Protestants in their own heritage.

 

[guanophore]

“This material was uploaded by Roger Pearse, Ipswich, UK, 2011, and derives from a translation of unknown origin formerly hosted at the Medieval Sourcebook” … um, yeah…

Do you need something from a more pro-Catholic site?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

 

[guanophore]

There was corruption and enslavement to the flesh, but when was it not so?

It was not so during the first four centuries of the Church, at least, and especially in the early years, where the successors of the Apostles were martyred for their faith.

Jesus came to free us from enslavement to the flesh. There are some that do not wish to be freed.

And when we measure him by the same standards even he is not above reproach

I don’t think I was suggesting that Luther was possessed of exceptional sanctity. What I am saying is that his opponents/adversaries were not, either.

There is no need to hold back from telling the truth about Luther and his acts, this will not damage the unity of Christians, since the truth will set you free, and allow us to evaluate the whole situation.

I agree, but I also observe that many seem to ascribe to Luther acts that were not his, and project upon him attitudes and values that he did not hold.

Many professional scholars would say he was a big part in the rise of Protestantism.

I do not think it takes a scholar to agree with this!

Sure, but I think the picture Protestants get of Luther is not the whole story, just the bright and sunny side, when there is certainly a dark underbelly which influenced his heresy and even the Bible.

This certainly seems to be the case. But this can be revealed without “bashing Luther”. The truth will speak for itself, without having to villify him.

 

[anon65111186]

But this can be revealed without “bashing Luther”. The truth will speak for itself, without having to villify him.

I agree, his own words are the best case for that not so holy Luther which caused a lot of division.