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Don_Ruggero
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Well, I am not sure by whose definition it is an unmitigated disaster.
We (that is Rome) acknowledge that there are positives.
In terms of dialogue, I haven’t had anyone non Catholic across the table from me that has said that their tradition had no value.
Actually, even those I have helped in the process to coming into full communion and then be ordained as Catholic priests have, in all instances, spoken of the positive of their own patrimony which they are bringing with them into the Roman Church – and which the Roman Church welcomes and embraces.
When I started all those years ago, I could never have imagined that, in my own lifetime, I would see Rome incorporate, for example, works composed by Thomas Cranmer into a form of the Mass – but then we had the Book of Divine Worship and subsequently the Missal of Divine Worship.
Now we are on the verge of a joint commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. The Pope together with Bishops (and we priests, too) will be having joint services of Common Prayer to commemorate the Reformation…all beginning October 31. The Catholic Bishops in the United States plan to extend the commemoration to two years, last I heard.
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Reuben_J
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In other word, treat him kindly. Why flog a dead man. Agreed.
However, for the older generation of Catholics like us (who are not too old but still remember), it will take a new paradigm shift as regard to the man Luther.
He was a genius but akin to a modern mad scientist. Left on his own, he will destroy the world, rein his talent, he will be hugely a benefit to humanity.
But to forget him is to close our eyes to an event, important event, rightly or wrongly, terribly wrong in most Catholic eyes, in our history. Would that be the solution?
He was responsible for an unfortunate event, the split of the Church, following a series of unfortunate events. Now he has become an embarrassment, at least to some posters in CAF,
, disowned by the products of his fruits (really?), he presents a pathetic figure post-humously.But let see at what those in the authority would say? The Catholic hierarchy for the first time in many years is considering, in fact taking the route unimaginable a few decades ago, to commemorate his anniversary albeit Reformation.
Forget Luther? Perhaps not. Forgive him? Yes, please do. Move one? Yes and yes. Let Luther be a lesson learned but In any case, we were one before him. That’s maybe should be the focus now.
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Don_Ruggero
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In fact. Thank God we live in the era we do. Histories written in the past have now been determined, in fact, to be set aside.
A few extracts taken out of From Conflict to Communion, which ultimately owes its existence to Cardinal Müller and Cardinal Koch:
*8. /…/ It is no longer adequate simply to repeat earlier accounts of the Reformation period, which presented Lutheran and Catholic perspectives separately and often in opposition to one another. Historical remembrance always selects from among a great abundance of historical moments and assimilates the selected elements into a meaningful whole. Because these accounts of the past were mostly oppositional, they not infrequently intensified the conflict between the confessions and sometimes led to open hostility.
- What happened in the past cannot be changed, but what is remembered of the past and how it is remembered can, with the passage of time, indeed change. /…/
- Research has contributed much to changing the perception of the past in a number of ways. In the case of the Reformation, these include the Protestant as well as the Catholic accounts of church history, which have been able to correct previous confessional depictions of history through strict methodological guidelines and reflection on the conditions of their own points of view and presuppositions. On the Catholic side that applies especially to the newer research on Luther and Reformation and, on the Protestant side, to an altered picture of medieval theology and to a broader and more differentiated treatment of the late Middle Ages. In current depictions of the Reformation period, there is also new attention to a vast number of non-theological factors—political, economic, social, and cultural. The paradigm of “confessionalization” has made important corrections to previous historiography of the period
- The late Middle Ages are no longer seen as total darkness, as often portrayed by Protestants, nor are they perceived as entirely light, as in older Catholic depictions /…/
- In a new way, Luther was portrayed as an earnest religious person and conscientious man of prayer. Painstaking and detailed historical research has demonstrated that Catholic literature on Luther over the previous four centuries right up through modernity had been significantly shaped by the commentaries of Johannes Cochaleus, a contemporary opponent of Luther and advisor to Duke George of Saxony. Cochaleus had characterized Luther as an apostatized monk, a destroyer of Christendom, a corrupter of morals, and a heretic. The achievement of this first period of critical, but sympathetic, engagement with Luther’s character was the freeing of Catholic research from the one-sided approach of such polemical works on Luther. Sober historical analyses by other Catholic theologians showed that it was not the core concerns of the Reformation, such as the doctrine of justification, which led to the division of the church but, rather, Luther’s criticisms of the condition of the church at his time that sprang from these concerns.
- The next step for Catholic research on Luther was to uncover analogous contents embedded in different theological thought structures and systems, carried out especially by a systematic comparison between the exemplary theologians of the two confessions, Thomas Aquinas and Martin Luther. This work allowed theologians to understand Luther’s theology within its own framework. At the same time, Catholic research examined the meaning of the doctrine of justification within the Augsburg Confession. Here Luther’s reforming concerns could be set within the broader context of the composition of the Lutheran confessions, with the result that the intention of the Augsburg Confession could be seen as expressing fundamental reforming concerns as well as preserving the unity of the church.
- These efforts led directly to the ecumenical project, begun in 1980 by Lutheran and Catholic theologians in Germany on the occasion of the 450th anniversary of the presentation of the Augsburg Confession, of a Catholic recognition of the Augsburg Confession. The extensive achievements of a later ecumenical working group of Protestant and Catholic theologians, tracing its roots back to this project of Catholic research on Luther, resulted in the study The Condemnations of the Reformation Era: Do They Still Divide?(3)
- The Second Vatican Council, responding to the scriptural, liturgical, and patristic revival of the preceding decades, dealt with such themes as esteem and reverence for the Holy Scripture in the life of the church, the rediscovery of the common priesthood of all the baptized, the need for continual purification and reform of the church, the understanding of church office as service, and the importance of the freedom and responsibility of human beings, including the recognition of religious freedom.
- In light of the renewal of Catholic theology evident in the Second Vatican Council, Catholics today can appreciate Martin Luther’s reforming concerns and regard them with more openness than seemed possible earlier.
- Implicit rapprochement with Luther’s concerns has led to a new evaluation of his catholicity, which took place in the context of recognizing that his intention was to reform, not to divide, the church. This is evident in the statements of Johannes Cardinal Willebrands and Pope John Paul II.(7) The rediscovery of these two central characteristics of his person and theology led to a new ecumenical understanding of Luther as a “witness to the gospel.”*
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Don_Ruggero
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I agree. I think there are important things to rememberOkay…
Then I suggest you not participate or read those kinds of threads
We know the position of the Popes since Vatican II and the position of Rome. That’s all that matters and all that has significance. Not individual posts on an American website
Many books and histories of the past people turn to as if they had currency, Church authorities today reject as polemical
We know what Pope Saint John Paul II said and did in the context of his meetings with the Lutherans from the point of the anniversary celebrations in 1983
We know Pope Benedict began plans for the joint commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation in 2005. He said in 2011
Hence, let us look together to the year 2017, which will recall theses of Martin Luther from 500 years ago. On that occasion, Lutherans and Catholics will have the opportunity to celebrate throughout the world a common ecumenical commemoration
There are those Catholics who refuse to submit to authority. Pope Saint John Paul II reminded us of the error of such
But especially contradictory is a notion of Tradition which opposes the universal Magisterium of the Church possessed by the Bishop of Rome and the Body of Bishops. It is impossible to remain faithful to the Tradition while breaking the ecclesial bond with him to whom, in the person of the Apostle Peter, Christ himself entrusted the ministry of unity in his Church
The Saint of God also reminded us
the living character of Tradition, which, as the Second Vatican Council clearly taught, “comes from the apostles and progresses in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. There is a growth in insight into the realities and words that are being passed on. This comes about in various ways…”
We can only look at the past through the eyes of the Magisterium of today
It is sad there are Catholics who approach issues without reference to the Holy See today
When one reads of a Catholic making statements against Martin Luther, we must remember, even if they refuse to acknowledge: the judgment of the Church today is different from even a few decades ago
EVERY CATHOLIC has been called on by the Successor of Peter to join in the commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. Catholic bishops globally will be joining their Lutheran counterparts in so Catholics and Lutherans may do precisely this in joint services of Common Prayer
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(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis will travel to Sweden in October for a joint ecumenical commemoration of the start of the Reformation, together with leaders of the Lutheran World Federation and representatives of other Christian Churches
The event will take place on October 31st in the southern Swedish city of Lund where the Lutheran World Federation was founded in 1947. While kicking off a year of events to mark the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation, it will also highlight the important ecumenical developments that have taken place during the past 50 years of dialogue between Catholics and Lutherans
The one-day event will include a common worship service in Lund cathedral based on a Catholic-Lutheran “Common Prayer” liturgical guide, published earlier this month by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (PCPCU) and the Lutheran World Federation (LWF)
The commemoration in Lund follows on directly from the publication in 2013 of a joint document entitled ‘From Conflict to Communion’, which focuses on the themes of thanksgiving, repentance and commitment to common witness. While asking for forgiveness for the divisions of past centuries, it also seeks to showcase the gifts of the Reformation and celebrate the way Catholics and Lutherans around the world work together on issues of common concern
Pope Francis, LWF President Bishop Dr Munib A. Younan and General Secretary Rev. Dr Martin Junge will lead the Ecumenical Commemoration in cooperation with the Church of Sweden and the Catholic Diocese of Stockholm
The joint ecumenical event /…/ will highlight the solid ecumenical developments between Catholics and Lutherans and the joint gifts received through dialogue /…/
“The LWF is approaching the Reformation anniversary in a spirit of ecumenical accountability,” says LWF General Secretary Rev. Dr Martin Junge /…/
Cardinal Koch, President of the PCPCU explains further: “By concentrating together on the centrality of the question of God and on a Christocentric approach, Lutherans and Catholics will have the possibility of an ecumenical commemoration of the Reformation, not simply in a pragmatic way, but in the deep sense of faith in the crucified and resurrected Christ
“It is with joy and expectation that the Church of Sweden welcomes The Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church to hold the joint commemoration of the Reformation in Lund,” says Church of Sweden Archbishop Antje Jackelén /…/
Earlier this year, the LWF and PCPCU sent to LWF member churches and Catholic Bishops’ Conferences a jointly prepared “Common Prayer” /…/ to help churches commemorate the Reformation anniversary together /…/ and features the themes of thanksgiving, repentance and commitment to common witness with the aim of expressing the gifts of the Reformation and asking forgiveness for the division which followed theological disputes*
What better way to end than with the words at the conclusion of From Conflict to Communion:
Catholics and Lutherans realize that they and the communities in which they live out their faith belong to the one body of Christ. The awareness is dawning on Lutherans and Catholics that the struggle of the sixteenth century is over. The reasons for mutually condemning each other’s faith have fallen by the wayside
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rcwitness
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Yes! I was raised Non-Denom/Evangelical Free, and i have many good memories and appreciation for the faithful love And worship of Jesus. This comes from the Catholic faith! And there is no need to try to remove that from these comunities, right!?
We can joyfully acknowledge the common, catholic faith we have (and certain members had) without demonizing others. If someone is excommunicated, that is unfortunate and for a particular reason. But it doesn’t mean they cannot be admired for having catholic faith in their lives. Neither does it mean that we know how their soul And life was judged by our Lord.
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steido01
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Yep. I think the example of Charles V is a great one to follow for both Catholics and Lutherans. Charles had conquered much of Lutheran Germany and his army stood ready to destroy Luther’s grave. Charles ordered it to be left undisturbed; his business was not with the dead, but the living. This is why I and other Lutherans here generally refrain from bringing up the abuses of the Church in Luther’s time; that is not our focus.
Yes, it will.
I can appreciate the goal of this sentiment. Luther was often his own worst enemy. He has so very much to offer all of Christendom, as Pope Benedict XVI has noted throughout his works.
I’m never an advocate for forgetting history. That has disastrous results.
Remember, “men of both sides were to blame.” Seek the fault in ourselves first. Do not assign it to one German monk. That’s the solution. We’re part of this narrative now, and we can write the next chapter any way we choose.He was responsible for an unfortunate event, the split of the Church, following a series of unfortunate events. Now he has become an embarrassment, at least to some posters in CAF,
But let see at what those in the authority would say? The Catholic hierarchy for the first time in many years is considering, in fact taking the route unimaginable a few decades ago, to commemorate his anniversary albeit Reformation.
Forget Luther? Perhaps not. Forgive him? Yes, please do. Move one? Yes and yes. Let Luther be a lesson learned but In any case, we were one before him. That’s maybe should be the focus now.
Thank you for sharing such hopefully words, Father.
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pablope
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Well…have you had enough of what the Reformation has wrought? Sometimes…it is worth it to examine the past to learn lessons for the future…and not putting a blind eye to it…is this what you are advocating?
crisismagazine.com/2012/what-the-reformation-has-wrought
The Protestants, preaching sola scriptura, threw much of it away. The Protestants believed that the deposit and structure of Catholic faith were fundamentally flawed, that Christ no longer abided in the Roman Church, and that Scripture alone communicated God’s will. Sola scriptura changed everything for Western Christendom. The Church became the churches, and the process inadvertently, but relentlessly, fueled individual sovereignty and relativism…With varying degrees of self-awareness, when the Reformers dismembered the sacraments, they changed the way Western culture perceived nature and the whole material world…
Does the above not bother you?
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Tomyris
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Yes it does bother me. The one-sidedness. The caricature and the misinformation in the above. It bothers me that you seem to have learned nothing from this discussion or from the Church’s admission that both sides are at fault. It bothers me that people condemn Protestants for “breaking away” when they break away from the approach the Catholic Church is advocating in order to condemn Protestants. I find this kind of hypocrisy nauseating. I find the unwillingness to submit to the Church by Catholics so they can blast Protestants revolting.
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AbideWithMe
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Unfortunately, though, the bashing very often creeps into all sorts of threads on subjects that were originally about something else.Okay…
Then I suggest you not participate or read those kinds of threads…
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FollowChrist34
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A lot of times the worst bashers are converts, which is not to smear all converts by any stretch. Most of them are very committed to their new faith and very inspirational to the natives. But sometimes I have seen converts invert one form of what I would frankly call “hate” from one denomination to another. Seamless transition: you hate Catholics when you are a Protestant, convert and presto - you hate Protestants with the exact same vigor and vengeance.
In other cases, I think this kind of hostility is learned from bad apples, either in family or Church experiences the person has had. It is a lack of charity and spiritual development, maturity. I don’t have a high opinion of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I would never tear one of them down in person or on a thread. If they ask me, yes I will tell them I think they are wrong, but I would avoid a tirade. Which is not to say I don’t get in arguments if pressed, I do. But even at the door if they show up (or Mormons), I just say no thanks and shut the door in a hurry, before they can answer. I even say stuff like “I am a practicing Catholic - God bless”. We are supposed to be witnessing Christ after all, not Attila the Hun.
In other cases, I think this kind of hostility is learned from bad apples, either in family or Church experiences the person has had. It is a lack of charity and spiritual development, maturity. I don’t have a high opinion of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I would never tear one of them down in person or on a thread. If they ask me, yes I will tell them I think they are wrong, but I would avoid a tirade. Which is not to say I don’t get in arguments if pressed, I do. But even at the door if they show up (or Mormons), I just say no thanks and shut the door in a hurry, before they can answer. I even say stuff like “I am a practicing Catholic - God bless”. We are supposed to be witnessing Christ after all, not Attila the Hun.
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adamhovey1988
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Could you specify?
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rcwitness
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As much as I try not to support unconstructive bashing of Luther and reformers, it does not mean they should escape criticism for their impact on Christianity. I wouldn’t try to silence a non-Catholic for criticizing heterodox teachings and practices of an influential Catholic.
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rfournier103
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I almost never agree with Tomyris, but I agree with this particular post. Well said, Tomyris.So people want me to say enough of what?
Catholics here emphasize Luther a lot more than Protestants do. There is a robust notion here that he is some kind of apostle and his teaching is unquestioned that despite all the discussions we have had, lingers on and on and on.
- blaming him for the decline and fall of European civilization as well as icky fall colors in women’s fashion
- creating threads
ost one: this thread is on blue skies
Post two: they have blue skies in Germany
Post 3: Luther was German
Posts 4-1000: Luther was a madman who wrecked the west
One day Luther woke up and said, I am going to go get me some schism! Bwuahaha! Lots of other people said, schism sounds good! Let’s split the church!
That was then. Well, no. It wasn’t like that. The Reformation may be the most complex historical event that ever occurred. People think they can sum it up in a tweet: Luther bad. Church good. It was extremely complex from any perspective. I’m talking from any theological perspective in the west. Or economic, historical, cultural. Most people don’t bring up dog grooming. That was probably complex, too, but never mind.
Never mind any of it. We have to deal with today. All those people who lived at the time of the Reformation are …dead. The theology and understandings of those who are the ‘inheritors’, if you will, of the Reformation AND of the Counter-Reformation have changed. Now we took across the divide.
The Church has said, they messed it up big time back then. Whoops. What are we going to do now? We can’t go back then and slap Martin upside the head and give him a wedgie theologically! All we can deal with is the time that we have to deal with now. Tolkien said it much better than I just did, but he had an English accent and he could write. Man, could he! We have to deal with today and not think that we are going to solve the problems of 500 years ago by resetting theology to back then and moving on. A lot has happened in 500 years. A lot.
People are waaaay too interested in digging up old muck and throwing it at those of a different theological opinion. It did not fix ANYTHING. I like what I am hearing about the push of the last 50 years on ecumenism. People need to get on board with it and forget about Martin Luther, who probably did not know how to groom a dog and that is why the Reformation happened. Never mind that last part. We are not clones of Martin Luther, Mary Martin or Martin Lloyd. Never mind them, either. We are people, on both sides, not caricatures, not cartoons, but people with dignity and thought and faith, and we need to engage each other in reality and not by trotting out the last 500 threads on why Martin Luther put the toilet paper on the roll wrong theologically. As Christians we have to engage today’s issues and fight today’s war, not a battle that was comfortable that ended long ago. We need to be allies, people, us Protestants and Catholics, and learn to groom dogs together (never mind that part) without quarrels as a witness to a world that is, in many places, freezing us out and kicking us out and burning us out. Denying tenure because of faith. Denying religious exemptions. A rampant, arrogant secularism and other forces I need not go into have arisen, and we are sitting around blaming Martin Luther. Gah.
I have had enough.
It does seem that the entire Christian world would be far better served (and do a better job of doing the Lord’s work) by working together as a whole rather than rehashing old conflicts. In this 21st century of ours, there is so much hatred of Christ and Christians that our Christian sensibilities have been almost completely pushed aside and ushered out of daily life.
This should be unacceptable to all of us.
Imagine what could be accomplished if ALL Christians banded together and stood up in defense of Christ’s teachings? If Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants all stood together for Christ and with Christ - we could change the world.
In the immortal words of the late great Benjamin Franklin; "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."
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JustaServant
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I could point out that the ‘chief basher’ is no longer with us.
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AbideWithMe
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I agree that constructive criticisms on any side are worthwhile, but I think this thread is more about a sort of “blame game” attitude where people don’t acknowledge their side’s role in past problems, nor take responsibility for present problems.
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AbideWithMe
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Yes, thank you Eric!I could point out that the ‘chief basher’ is no longer with us.
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pablope
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Well…how about Protestants bashing Catholics, who keep on blaming the CC for the excommunicating Luther, call the Pope the Anti-Christ…etc, etc…for blaming the CC as solely the cause of the Reformation…do you find this hypocrisy also nauseating?
And I gather too, that it bothers you what Catholics do, but it does not bother you what Protestants do and what the Reformation has wrought?
Well…it seems you did not read the article I posted and you only saw the one sidedness of the article. You accuse Catholics of being one side…yet you show your being one sided too. If you had read the article, it blames Catholics too. I intentionally did not post the part blaming Catholics so that I could find out if you would really read the article.
crisismagazine.com/2012/what-the-reformation-has-wrought
From the same article:
Catholics Not Entirely Blameless
Catholics have made terrible and costly mistakes in this story.Gregory also shows that while the Reformers lit the fuse, medieval Catholics laid the dynamite. Late medieval laity were, quite often, profoundly pious. And because they were pious, they minded when their leaders weren’t. Pious laypeople had an appetite for reform precisely because of their devotion. Late medieval clergy too often preached one thing and did another. Greed, simony, nepotism, luxury, sexual license, and schism in the hierarchy created an intolerable gap between Christian preaching and practice…But before congratulating ourselves for avoiding that mistake, Catholics need to linger over why Christian life was ripe for such destructive turmoil in the first place. Too many Catholics—especially, but by no means only, clerical leaders—lived their professed faith with visible cynicism. Gregory’s first lesson, then, is that the way we live matters. Our failure to practice caritas has consequences for our unitas, then and now.
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JustaServant
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Eric gave him a lot of rope.
I tried in the last thread he was on to try to show him a better way. But to no avail.
That’s why I have a problem with ‘armchair apologists’ (on either side of the Tiber). The destruction of their opponent becomes more important than truth.
WHICH, BTW, is why I started the ‘33,000’ thread.
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