- Status
C
commenter
Guest
You mean there are not 33,000 denominations? Hmm…
I would be happy to see armchair apologists, as opposed to shooting range apologists (except I keep seeing JonNC over on that gun control thread, so better not bring that up),
M
Michael_Francis
Guest
**http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/Off-Topic--Alert.gif
Please return to and remain on topic.
Essentially topic is is Luther worth further debate?**
Please return to and remain on topic.
Essentially topic is is Luther worth further debate?**
A
AbideWithMe
Guest
T
Tomyris
Guest
Maybe that is like the finale in the fireworks show, and we have said, enough already?
I am not sure there is a whole lot more to say than has been said (aware that saying that may generate 10,000 more posts).
I am not sure there is a whole lot more to say than has been said (aware that saying that may generate 10,000 more posts).
R
Reuben_J
Guest
My position on this is that there is much to say about Luther. It’s a matter of being able to discus it objectively without taking offense.
Why does subject like this need to be discussed? It’s simply because of the stark reality that Luther had hugely affected Cbristianity as we know it today.
We have not gotten over him yet. It still pains us one way or the other. Thus it needs to be exorcised and we be set free from the effect it has on us. Until we can sit down and talk about Luther without getting red in the face and agree on what is bring said, then perhaps we have been set free from the doings of our ancestors five hundred years ago.
Online discussion has its limitation but advantage too. One can be more frank and be able to say the things which may be too sensitive in real life but nevertheless needs to be said.
Many Catholics and that include myself, are scandalized when the Church decided to
commemorate the 500th year of Reformation. But there is wise practical reality in that which I am still trying to see.
Why does subject like this need to be discussed? It’s simply because of the stark reality that Luther had hugely affected Cbristianity as we know it today.
We have not gotten over him yet. It still pains us one way or the other. Thus it needs to be exorcised and we be set free from the effect it has on us. Until we can sit down and talk about Luther without getting red in the face and agree on what is bring said, then perhaps we have been set free from the doings of our ancestors five hundred years ago.
Online discussion has its limitation but advantage too. One can be more frank and be able to say the things which may be too sensitive in real life but nevertheless needs to be said.
Many Catholics and that include myself, are scandalized when the Church decided to
commemorate the 500th year of Reformation. But there is wise practical reality in that which I am still trying to see.
R
Rasoleil
Guest
I’m Catholic and my wife is Lutheran, LCMS Missouri Synod ( have to make that distinction, ‘LCMS’), and she’s is related to ole Martin Luther, descended from his brother. She’ll never let me forget it. 
R
Reuben_J
Guest
What wonderful privilege that is. You have inside information that we don’t.I’m Catholic and my wife is Lutheran, LCMS Missouri Synod ( have to make that distinction, ‘LCMS’), and she’s is related to ole Martin Luther, descended from his brother. She’ll never let me forget it.
God bless.
H
Hatikvah
Guest
Despite how I’m a Protestant, I just find it odd: I, personally, think that the Church (in general, not just the Catholic Church) is too susceptible to outsider influence. By that, the theology and ideology of entire denominations have been “fixed” to accommodate homosexuality, blah blah blah, and we all know the whole tale.
But Luther is, no matter what your views are, a historically and theologically important man in the context of Christianity and the history of Europe (he also may have influenced the ideology of the Founding Fathers in the arena of freedom of religion and speech :yup
.
R
Rasoleil
Guest
Yeah, found out through doing genealogy and I love history. And to balance things out a bit, I had found out I’m related to at least 9 Spanish Cardinals, one of which was very close to the infamous Alexander VI, a Borgia.What wonderful privilege that is. You have inside information that we don’t.
God bless.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Wow. Would that by any chance make you a descendant of the Pope himself, perhaps from the lineage of one of his mistresses? The Borgias or was it spelt Borja in Spanish, had strong influential connection in Spanish Catholicism of that era.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
About Luther, yeah, and agreed to that too. It is hard to keep him aside, perhaps from both religious divides.Despite how I’m a Protestant, I just find it odd: I, personally, think that the Church (in general, not just the Catholic Church) is too susceptible to outsider influence. By that, the theology and ideology of entire denominations have been “fixed” to accommodate homosexuality, blah blah blah, and we all know the whole tale.
But Luther is, no matter what your views are, a historically and theologically important man in the context of Christianity and the history of Europe (he also may have influenced the ideology of the Founding Fathers in the arena of freedom of religion and speech :yup
It couldn’t be more true in your first para. Even in Catholicism, where doctrine is clearcut, and of course, very traditional, very conservative by today’s standard, it is not uncommon for Catholics to embrace relativism, a major problem faced by the Church today, and one of the major thrusts of the former Pope’s (Benedict XVI) pontificate.
R
Rasoleil
Guest
No, not any of the Borgia’s, but the Cardinal and Archbishop, and actually a statesman as well, that I referred to is Cardinal Pedro Gonzales de Mendoza (1428-1495). He is of the Hurtado de Mendoza family, a very influential family back then in Spain. I am no actually a direct descendant of the Cardinal ( who also had 3 other Cardinals in his family, one nephew for sure), but one of his brothers. It’s easy to find anything about Cardinal Mendoza online, but name a few of the things that he was involved in and not in any particular order: Married Isabella and Ferdinand, an advocate for Christopher Columbus before Isabella, Archbishop of Toledo (1482-1495), Archbishop of Seville ( 1474-1482), he contributed largely to the maintenance of the Army in the conquest of Granada, occupied the town of Granada in 1492 on behalf of the crown (was more of a soldier and statesman than a priest), he had two sons, In 1472, Mendoza used his position as leader of the family to extract from the royal couple and from the papal legate, Rodrigo Borgia (before he was Pope Alexander VI, of course), a cardinalate, and the archbishopric of Seville, cardinal Mendoza and Borgia had met in Valencia and Guadalajara, Spain, to negotiate an alliance between the Mendoza and the Catholic Monarchs in the Castilian succession dispute, among many other things. Mendoza did not participate in the Papal Conclave that elected Borgia as Pope, as Mendoza was pretty busy in Spain. Yes, so the Mendoza family were pretty close to Rodrigo Borgia and his family.
D
Don_Ruggero
Guest
First, anyone who has been involved with the dialogue has not put a blind eye to anything. Very far from it.
As for the question: “does the above not bother you?”…what bothers me as a theologian is knowing exactly the historical reasons why the deposit and structure of the Roman Church were deemed fundamentally flawed (actually I would say irretrievably lost, given their perspective) by the Reformers and that they confronted an institution in which they could no longer discern the Lord…or else discerned Him as so lost in the midst of everything they confronted, as to be One to be rescued and the rest discarded.
Also that they confronted a situation in which they turned to the Scriptures because the Pope, Cardinals and Bishops (i.e. The Magisterium), for them, no longer had their confidence. They had lost faith in what was being taught by these living authorities.
The division within Western Christianity was a tragedy. The division of East and West was also a tragedy. Both had profound ramifications on so many many levels.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
The question was directed to the OP, who is not a Catholic.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
P
Pier
Guest
Hmm…If you say so.
Modern Lutherans have nothing to do with Luther except in name and they do not follow Luther’s teaching.It is only fair that we should not associate Luther anymore with Lutherism but instead to work for unity with the Catholic Church so that we can be one once more as if before Luther.
And maybe do not teach Catholic children anymore about Luther. As it is now, ask any Catholic, he/she will tell you that Luther broke away from the Catholic Church and thus began the great splintering of the one Church into many churches that we see today.
Perhaps the Holy Spirit is moving today and is healing the pain caused by the broken Church and working towards a unified Church once again. It is encouraging to hear our separate brethren saying this. All is left now is to tell Catholics who have not known this.
Looking forwards for that day when we will be one.
As children, we didn’t learn ANYTHING about Luther. At least in CCD. The only thing we were told about Protestants is that they were like our cousins in Christ, and that was it. Everything else was learning about our Lord, the Sacraments and receiving Him worthily in the Eucharist, and…how to apply His teachings to our every day lives.
We weren’t taught anti-anybody else. Just OUR Faith, which consists of HIS teachings.
P
Pier
Guest
The Catholic Church has not (nor will it) say that it is OKAY to practice homosexuality.Despite how I’m a Protestant, I just find it odd: I, personally, think that the Church (in general, not just the Catholic Church) is too susceptible to outsider influence. By that, the theology and ideology of entire denominations have been “fixed” to accommodate homosexuality, blah blah blah, and we all know the whole tale.
But Luther is, no matter what your views are, a historically and theologically important man in the context of Christianity and the history of Europe (he also may have influenced the ideology of the Founding Fathers in the arena of freedom of religion and speech :yup
It has publicly acknowledged it as one of those things that - like unmarried people co-habituating - must be addressed in the sense that we understand that these actions ARE sins - common ones these days - but that they are like any other sin…forgivable.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Depends on where you come from. We were taught Catechism, there was no CCD then. Sometimes teacher would tell you simple history of the Church. Luther’s name was mentioned and the rise of Protestantism. I didn’t remember about being anti-anybody. But as a kid, I knew because of Luther, a Protestant church existed. Living in a majority Catholic community, we didn’t get to interact much with Protestants to hear their side of the story. I thought it was unfortunate that the Church that Jesus left behind was fragmented again in the 16th century. Today according to the CCC, Protestants are our separated brethren. There’s nothing removely to suggest that we should consider them otherwise.
- Status