Luther not a Heretic

[reteeks21]

First I never condemned anyone what I said was Martin Luther has met his judgement. Read what I said please and do not add anything to it.

What that judgement was I do not know.

For all I know Martin Luther could have recanted with his last breath.

The Pope never said otherwise that was already discussed and proven false on this forum.

And for your question I cannot answer it when I do not know whom us is. whom is us?

The “us” are my fellow Protestants. I suppose the only way we won’t face eternal damnation, by your viewpoint, is if we recant our heresy. Am I wrong?

And as for the pope never excommunicated Luther, you are wrong. Leo X excommunicated him because he did not recant some of his statements. That was made clear in the papal bull Exsurge Domine. The excommunication was handed down in Leo X’s bull Decet Romanum Pontificem. I am pretty well educated in history and Christianity ( I have degrees in both), and I think I just proved it to you based on the words put on paper by Leo’s own hand. Even if you disagree, history speaks for itslef. And in case you are wondering, my history and religion degrees are not based on secular view points. In fact, I have nothing against the RCC unlike many of my fellow Protestants. I do, however, take issue when someone says malicious things that they know nothing about, or their education in it is limited to one viewpoint.

Also, is pope Urban considered a heretic or damned when he took the call for a Crusade one step too far by saying that if you kill Muslim agressors you will get to heaven? Or was he allowed to say that and get away with it cause he was the pope. And by the way, I support his call for a Crusade and his justification for it.

 

[NDfan]

How would this be awesome? I for one would be in extreme disappointment if the Pope made such a statement and would have to reconsider whether the Catholic Church had the entire truth.

Luther was a heretic. Period. He severed himself openly from the Church.

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew

Harpazo perhaps you don’t understand what Luther was all about. If the Pope declared this then that would be a giant step for unity.

With regard to the fullness of the truth, Luther was calling the church out on things the Pope admitted were corruptions. Luther was addressing the sale of indulgences as preached by the RCC from the supposed “treasury of merit”. The treasury of merit has no scriptural foundation whatsoever. When Luther placed his thesis on the church door, all he was doing was following the church’s procedures for bringing issues to the table. It’s not like he walked up and nailed them to the door in an arrogant fashion. Placing items on the church door was their bulletin board system so he did nothing wrong.

His theses were written in Latin and some students who understood them re-wrote them in German and started circulating them. Within 2 weeks the whole thing got out of hand which was not Luther’s original intention. Instead of handling the matter correctly the church wanted him to recant everything he said. His response was unless I have said something that disagress with scripture I will not. This led to his sola scripture teaching which basically says that you can’t create doctrines of required beliefs without scriptural support and he’s 100% correct. Instead of working the matter through the RCC wanted to save face so they threw him out. Just like the high priests said of Jesus, better to kill one man than to have many suffer.

This declaration would be justice served and I’ll be curious to see if it does happen what the tone of these boards will be then.

PEACE

 

[reteeks21]

Harpazo perhaps you don’t understand what Luther was all about. If the Pope declared this then that would be a giant step for unity.

With regard to the fullness of the truth, Luther was calling the church out on things the Pope admitted were corruptions. Luther was addressing the sale of indulgences as preached by the RCC from the supposed “treasury of merit”. The treasury of merit has no scriptural foundation whatsoever. When Luther placed his thesis on the church door, all he was doing was following the church’s procedures for bringing issues to the table. It’s not like he walked up and nailed them to the door in an arrogant fashion. Placing items on the church door was their bulletin board system so he did nothing wrong.

His theses were written in Latin and some students who understood them re-wrote them in German and started circulating them. Within 2 weeks the whole thing got out of hand which was not Luther’s original intention. Instead of handling the matter correctly the church wanted him to recant everything he said. His response was unless I have said something that disagress with scripture I will not. This led to his sola scripture teaching which basically says that you can’t create doctrines of required beliefs without scriptural support and he’s 100% correct. Instead of working the matter through the RCC wanted to save face so they threw him out. Just like the high priests said of Jesus, better to kill one man than to have many suffer.

This declaration would be justice served and I’ll be curious to see if it does happen what the tone of these boards will be then.

PEACE

Excellent clarification, but I believe that your historical basis will still be denied even though it is clear what happened. Why is it so hard for SOME RC’s to own up to the idea that maybe their church had it wrong at leat once?

 

[rpp]

Here you go. I’ve seen it elsewhere also.

timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3492299.ece

Article discussed and refuted here.

cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=57062

The Times of London has a habit of intentionally misconstruing what Vatican officials have to say. But then the English have been doing that for almost 500 years

 

[c659smith]

Harpazo perhaps you don’t understand what Luther was all about. If the Pope declared this then that would be a giant step for unity.

With regard to the fullness of the truth, Luther was calling the church out on things the Pope admitted were corruptions. Luther was addressing the sale of indulgences as preached by the RCC from the supposed “treasury of merit”. The treasury of merit has no scriptural foundation whatsoever. When Luther placed his thesis on the church door, all he was doing was following the church’s procedures for bringing issues to the table. It’s not like he walked up and nailed them to the door in an arrogant fashion. Placing items on the church door was their bulletin board system so he did nothing wrong.

His theses were written in Latin and some students who understood them re-wrote them in German and started circulating them. Within 2 weeks the whole thing got out of hand which was not Luther’s original intention. Instead of handling the matter correctly the church wanted him to recant everything he said. His response was unless I have said something that disagress with scripture I will not. This led to his sola scripture teaching which basically says that you can’t create doctrines of required beliefs without scriptural support and he’s 100% correct. Instead of working the matter through the RCC wanted to save face so they threw him out. Just like the high priests said of Jesus, better to kill one man than to have many suffer.

This declaration would be justice served and I’ll be curious to see if it does happen what the tone of these boards will be then.

PEACE

You really need to read non biased History.

Esspecially If you think Martin Luther was excommunicated because of a dispute on paid indulgences.

He openly called the Pope and the Church Satan.

He openly attempted to rewrite the bible for “Faith Alone” the two words never ajoin eachother in the bible.

How many points did Martin Luther have prior to his excommunication?

I do not argue some Popes were bad. But we don’t get rid of the baby and keep the bath water.

The Church is infallible thriugh it’s sacred scripture, Teachings, and Traditions.

Man is fallible and always will be.

 

[NDfan]

Excellent clarification, but I believe that your historical basis will still be denied even though it is clear what happened. Why is it so hard for SOME RC’s to own up to the idea that maybe their church had it wrong at leat once?

I’m not sure. Perhaps as you stated, I don’t think many understand true church history. I believe the RCC spins this in their favor and it gets presented this way in RCI classes. EWTN was speaking of this a few weeks ago and the priests just flat out claimed Luther was wrong. I think what it comes down to was the fact that it got so publicized and the RCC was not going to outwardly appear or even admit that they could ever be wrong. This would cause many to raise questions and perhaps even challenge the RCCs authority.

It will be interesting if it ever happens.

PEACE

 

[c659smith]

Excellent clarification, but I believe that your historical basis will still be denied even though it is clear what happened. Why is it so hard for SOME RC’s to own up to the idea that maybe their church had it wrong at leat once?

Man had it wrong not the Church.

The Church is Christ why can you not understand that.

 

[NDfan]

You really need to read non biased History.

I do read non biased church history. The question is do you??

Esspecially If you think Martin Luther was excommunicated because of a dispute on paid indulgences.

Especially has one “s” by the way. And the core issue was not indulgences. The core issue was creating church doctrine that had no scriptural support. The sale of indulgences was an example that Luther used, but it was the most abused.

He openly called the Pope and the Church Satan.

That’s taken out of context. Perhaps you should carefully study what the events were that transpired.

He openly attempted to rewrite the bible for “Faith Alone” the two words never ajoin eachother in the bible.

No he never attempted to re-write the Bible as no Protestant Bible has those words together. This statement of yours demonstrates your misunderstanding of what Faith alone is really all about. Luther was speaking in rejection of a works-based Faith that gained one entry to Heaven. Luther used Paul’s letter to the Romans as an example to support his claim. Paul flat out states that we are not saved by works lest we boast.

How many points did Martin Luther have prior to his excommunication?

Not sure what you mean here.

I do not argue some Popes were bad. But we don’t get rid of the baby and keep the bath water.

And that’s not what Luther was suggesting. Again Roman Catholics get so defensive about this. Luther was calling for some badly needed reform and he wanted to effect those reforms within the church. Not by leaving it and creating a public spectacle. It will be interesting to see if the Pope really makes this declaration. If he does what will be your feelings on it??

The Church is infallible thriugh it’s sacred scripture, Teachings, and Traditions.
Man is fallible and always will be.

And you forget that it is man who runs and heads up the church. So given that man is fallible corruption can easily become part of the church. This is why Jesus had such distaste for authority and plainly told the Apostles they would never exercise authority over one another.

The major theme of Luther’s theses was you can’t create sacred teachings or sacred traditions that become doctrine without scriptural support.

PEACE

 

[NDfan]

Man had it wrong not the Church.

The Church is Christ why can you not understand that.

Excellent point. Man did have it wrong. But those men were part of the RCC and in need of correction. This proves the point that Papal infallibility is false.

What will you feelings be if the Pope does declare this?? I would be surprised if he did. Maybe we should start a poll and pose the question to the forum. If the Pope declared Luther was not a heretic what would be your reaction? What could be some answers??

1. Nothing doesn’t matter to me
2. Would raise doubts regarding other beliefs
3. Would question the infallibility of the Pope
4. Would not only question the Pope but may leave the RCC

 

[c659smith]

I’m not sure. Perhaps as you stated, I don’t think many understand true church history. I believe the RCC spins this in their favor and it gets presented this way in RCI classes. EWTN was speaking of this a few weeks ago and the priests just flat out claimed Luther was wrong. I think what it comes down to was the fact that it got so publicized and the RCC was not going to outwardly appear or even admit that they could ever be wrong. This would cause many to raise questions and perhaps even challenge the RCCs authority.

It will be interesting if it ever happens.

PEACE

I am confused?

Do you think the Catholic Church is going to join the Lutheran Church ?

Again Papal infallability is in relationship to Sacred Scirpture, Sacred Teachings, and Sacred Traditions.

Papal infallability does not continue with Him as Man.

I do not think you will ever get a Pope to say he never sinned or his decisions are always correct as it pertains to areas away from scripture,traditions, or teachings that have been deemed as Sacred.

The Popes are not Gods so they are not perfect.
But Christ’s Church is. (Catholic Church)

Christ in building His Church had organized the 12 Apostles. Do you think they were perfect? Of course not.
But His Church was and is. (Catholic church)

 

[Lampo]

Excellent point. Man did have it wrong. But those men were part of the RCC and in need of correction. This proves the point that Papal infallibility is false.

How does it prove Papal infallibility to be false?

 

[rpp]

Excellent point. Man did have it wrong. But those men were part of the RCC and in need of correction. This proves the point that Papal infallibility is false.

What will you feelings be if the Pope does declare this?? I would be surprised if he did. Maybe we should start a poll and pose the question to the forum. If the Pope declared Luther was not a heretic what would be your reaction? What could be some answers??

1. Nothing doesn’t matter to me
2. Would raise doubts regarding other beliefs
3. Would question the infallibility of the Pope
4. Would not only question the Pope but may leave the RCC

How does it prove Papal infallibility to be false?

A couple of points. We can look to the fruit of Luther’s protest. That fruit n the short terms was a bloody civil war in Germany that had nothing to do with religion. that fruit lead to numerous wars and uncounted dead, wounded and displaced persons.

That fruit lead to a disunity in the Church that to this day is a terrible embarrassment for Christianity. God is not an anarchist.

While Luther made some legitimate points and identified weaknesses in certain practices, his problem was that he wanted to change Church doctrine. THAT is what made him a heretic and that is not something a Pope can undo.

The news story has already been shown to be a lie. See the post (about #25) referring to the Catholic World News story discussing the London Time article.

If you want to make such a poll, you should add a question, “The Pope would never do this.”

 

[c659smith]

Excellent point. Man did have it wrong. But those men were part of the RCC and in need of correction. This proves the point that Papal infallibility is false.

What will you feelings be if the Pope does declare this?? I would be surprised if he did. Maybe we should start a poll and pose the question to the forum. If the Pope declared Luther was not a heretic what would be your reaction? What could be some answers??

1. Nothing doesn’t matter to me
2. Would raise doubts regarding other beliefs
3. Would question the infallibility of the Pope
4. Would not only question the Pope but may leave the RCC

Again money for indulgences did not come from Sacred Scripture, Sacred Traditions, and Sacred Teachings.

What Luther did was attempt to change these scripture on the Apocalypse, Scripture on Faith Alone not only by his statements but to change the bible itself.

Teaching by calling the Pope Satan along with the Catholic Church.

Traditions by attempting to remove the Church, the Pope, it’s Bishops, and Priests

This some of the reasons he was called a heretic

 

[reteeks21]

Man had it wrong not the Church.

The Church is Christ why can you not understand that.

Have you and the RCC EVER been wrong about anything, or are Prot. just the only ones?

 

[c659smith]

Have you and the RCC EVER been wrong about anything, or are Prot. just the only ones?

The body of the church is made up of the Pope, Bishops, clergy etc… and the laity,

There have been scandals in the Church such as the recent sex scandal.

These scandals make the Church stronger as the body learns from them. They do not destroy the Church.

Jesus is the head of the Catholic Church

THE Catholic Church is the greatest wonder on earth. It is the only organization founded by God himself. It is more: a living organism, not merely natural but supernatural. Jesus Christ, who founded the Church and gave it its constitution is–for he still lives–not only man but God, the one true God who is infinite Being and limitless in every perfection. The Church is his body, an organic society with its own life secret.

Paul repeatedly called the Church the body of Christ, of which Jesus is the head and we the members. In any body the head is the center of all the important functions–seeing, hearing, speaking, thinking, and willing. All the operations of life flow through a man from the head; so does Christ’s headship regulate the life of those joined to him in that one spiritual personality, the Church. That is why Augustine called the Church “the whole Christ.”

Christ identified the Church with himself: “He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me” (Luke 10:16). Thus when the Church sacrifices, Christ sacrifices; when the Church forgives, Christ forgives; when the Church teaches, Christ teaches; when the Church is persecuted, Christ is persecuted. Saul was on the road to Damascus when “suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?' He asked, Who are you, Lord?’ The reply came, `I am Jesus, whom you persecute’” (Acts 9:4).

 

[c659smith]

You see when the body is wrong we all are wrong.

If change is needed we all request.

We the body right, wrong, or indifferent abide by Her rules. We are ***“One” ***Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

The problem with Luther is he acted as one and infused corruption of the body through some of Her members.
Rather than to having patience (Holy Spirit) and help the body as a whole to facilitate that change.

For change does not ocurr overnight but if he would have worked with the clergy as he was one quietly and patiently he may have been called a hero for being a part of the removal of a scandal, rather than a heretic due to his actions and ramblings.

Was what he did bad well no not for the Church but for Himself and those he led astray.

 

[NDfan]

I am confused?

Do you think the Catholic Church is going to join the Lutheran Church ?

No the other way around. I think it will promote unity for all Protestant churches with the Catholic church.

Here is a link to a site that talks about what the Pope is doing: You’ll see that he is also trying to repair some damage that was done last summer when he re-ratified those ridiculous documents about non-Roman Catholic churches.

timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3492299.ece

Again Papal infallability is in relationship to Sacred Scirpture, Sacred Teachings, and Sacred Traditions.

Papal infallability does not continue with Him as Man.

Yes I understand that. But I don’t believe that he can be a man and rule singularly on all matters of faith in an infallible way.

I do not think you will ever get a Pope to say he never sinned or his decisions are always correct as it pertains to areas away from scripture,traditions, or teachings that have been deemed as Sacred.

Yes I agree.

The Popes are not Gods so they are not perfect. But Christ’s Church is. (Catholic Church)

Yes absolutely, well said:thumbsup: But that further supports the point that one man cannot rule infallibly. How do you know where personal interests become separate from the overall interests of the church?

Christ in building His Church had organized the 12 Apostles. Do you think they were perfect? Of course not. But His Church was and is. (Catholic church)

No of course the apostles were not perfect. We know they weren’t. But Jesus trusted them to further HIS Gospel and I think all Christians carry this responsibility.

PEACE

 

[rpp]

Have you and the RCC EVER been wrong about anything, or are Prot. just the only ones?

Individuals make mistakes, including individual lay people, priests and bishops. The Teaching authority of the Church, the Pope in union with all the bishops, are prevented from teaching doctrinal error through the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

So no, the Catholic Church has never been wrong on a matter of doctrine or morals. That does not mean that better understanding does not come with experience and study. That is why the Catholic Church has never changed a teaching, only clarified them.

 

[NDfan]

How does it prove Papal infallibility to be false?

Because it shows the Pope can make a mistake when ruling on spiritual matters. Let me ask this. If the Pope moves forward with these declarations what will be your opinion of Papal infallibility??

 

[rpp]

Because it shows the Pope can make a mistake when ruling on spiritual matters. Let me ask this. If the Pope moves forward with these declarations what will be your opinion of Papal infallibility??

Such questions are like asking"

When pigs levitate, that proves that Issac Newton was wrong. So when Issac Newton is proved wrong will you:

1. 
   *]Still believe against logic that Men landed on the Moon?
   *]Realize That the Moon Landings were faked.
   *]Continue to promote the silly idea that the space program really launches rockets into space.

1. 
   Such is the sillyness that you are suggesting.
   
   You are basing your premise on a news article that is grossly and possibly intentionally inaccurate. You are also completely ignoring all the evidence that demonstrates this. If you want to discuss reality, than do so. But insisting on a fantasy from the fevered imaginations of an anti-Catholic newspaper reporter is beyond silly.