Luther! Read Read!

[Catholic_Dude]

cont…
This whole theme is clear from Is. CHAPTER 1:
4 Ah, sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, offspring of evildoers, sons who deal corruptly! They have forsaken the LORD, they have despised the Holy One of Israel, they are utterly estranged. 5 Why will you still be smitten,** that you continue to rebel?** The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
…
16 Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, 17 learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; defend the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD:** though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool**. 19 If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land…
This whole book is a call to turn from evil and at the same time see what evil gets you. Turning from evil and doing good in the eyes of the Lord is NOT as filthy rags, that filthy rags talk is out of contex and not at all what this book is about.

and Psalmn 130:4:

12 Who can understand his errors?
Cleanse thou me from secret faults.

(I dont see this in Ps130)

What about Jeremiah 17? The heart is deceitful above all things - who can understand it?

More out of context one liners, a weakness in protestantism. Here is the quote in some context:7 “Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose trust is the LORD. 8 He is like a tree planted by water, that sends out its roots by the stream, and does not fear when heat comes, for its leaves remain green, and is not anxious in the year of drought, for it does not cease to bear fruit.” 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it? 10 “I the LORD search the mind and try the heart, to give to every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.”
See the huge change when these classical protestant Total Depravity verses are looked at with some context? Fallen nature doesnt equal sinning all the time or unable to not sin. As v7 explains with the tree who yields good fruit and green leaves, that is not the total depravity your searching for. V9 is about fallen man, weakend but not hopelessly bent on doing evil. V10 says the Lord knows the mind and heart, if the heart is already deceitful why would the Lord need to search it and reward accordingly?

What about Mark 7?:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 all these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

“all these evil things” - are “evil” things sins or concupiscence? Do they need Christ’s forgiveness?

They only defile the man if acted out, James 3:5ff talks about this same issue. Its not some outside force that makes someone sin, but their own doing.

Catholic Dude (and Steve) - I submit that when Jesus says “do this and you shall live” you need to weigh that very seriously. I do to. Jesus’ words are sometimes not meant to be taken strictly at face value, but are, like the parables, meant to confound and break us. Think about it. Jesus said he didn’t come for the healthy but the sick. Was he saying the Pharisees were really not sick? Jesus said to Simon the Pharisee that “he who has been forgiven much loves much and he who has been forgiven little…” Did Jesus mean to say that Simon really didn’t need to be forgiven that much? Jesus says to the Canaanite woman “it is not right to give the children’s food to the dogs”… did he really mean that he had not come for the Gentiles?

I would agree in general with this.

PS I checked that quote I’ve been using. The quote really is: “Small sins become great when they are considered small”. Do you see what he is saying?

It depends on the situation. I wouldnt say that any and every sin at the end of the day results in losing salvation. But at the same time making a habit of “small sins” usually does add up and lead to worse things.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Assurance-

Luther does talk about distinguishing faith and works - but that is only as it is related to how someone is saved.

Do you realize what you just said? If they are not connected in relation to salvation then they dont really have any relation.

As TertiumQuid correctly points out, Luther believed that works offer evidence that someone does have true faith - they are not the cause of our acceptance before God in any sense.

It appears that is what Luther believed, and as I have shown this whole thread his view is unBiblical.

…
…To the proud one who thinks that he is justified by his works

We are justified and judged according to our works. The “proud” part though is where the problem comes in.

To the one who is shattered and fears the judgement of the holy and rightious God, Paul says to the Phillipian jailor “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.”

I consider this the most abused Scripture passage (used as a Protestant proof text) of all time.
See this short thread at post 11.

This is what Luther means when he says that faith and works must be distinguished and kept separate - but NOT in terms of the final judgement before men:

“Before men” means nothing, the Bible talks about how men love the darkness, thats because thats where they sin, when they think no one is looking. But God sees all. God judges, when someone does something they know is wrong, even when no one is looking its still wrong.

… where not their faith, but their visible works will be put forth as evidence before the world that they were indeed God’s beloved children.

You are to do good works infront of the world, but God judges your soul not men. If you donate to charity, but the previous day you stole the money then what men saw you do and what God saw you do were two different things.

Even in the end, our works are there not because God needs them ….but because the neighbor does.

Thats inaccurate. At this point its only an excuse to merge faith and works from an already exposed error of Faith Alone. In the sermon on the mount, Jesus talks about being the salt of the earth, but also says to not do your deeds before men, but in private so God will reward you.

Koberle: …
… …

In general I dont disagree with this quote by Koberle (edited for size).

In short, having already been made disciples, the Christian is to become a disciple. … Only God gives life and makes alive. All things have their beginning in Christ and find their end in Him. In Him alone we are secure and apart from Him we have no security. Do nothing, but only believe.

Again I agree with 90% of this, but its almost all for nothing when you add or conclude the way you do. Its like your trying to convince me how you hold to faith and works, but then slip in a line or two like “Do nothing, only believe” and that invalidates what you just got through saying.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Assurance-

I am saying this however in regards to the question “What must I do to be saved?” To the Christian who is terrified by the wrath of God and worries about his deeds, he should be pointed to Christ, not to his works.

Why is a Christian “terrified”? IF he is a Christian he should know that his sins are forgiven at Baptism. Thats what Catholics have always believed. As the Council of Orange (530AD) says:
According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul.
Anyone who calls themself “Christian” should not not be terrified. He should always be alert lest he fall, but he shouldnt be afraid of the Man who saved him.

In fact, in some cases one might not even bring up the verb “to believe”. Just talking about the object of faith - Jesus Christ - engenders faith.

The Gospel is good news about comfort and assurance.

Its about comfort and assurance, BUT its also about the fight of your life. Enduring till the end, taking the path less traveled, separating yourself from the world, etc. When you obey Christ THEN you find true comfort and assurance.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Catholic Dude:

I am trying to get up to date, this is responding to post 401

TertiumQuid-

I have shown clear passages that indicate Luther was very open in separating faith and works.

Here are a few I dug up from this thread:We know that we must also teach good works, but they must be taught in their proper turn, when the discussion is concerning works and not the article of justification. post22

“By faith only in Christ are we pronounced righteous, and not by works.” Not that we reject good works. Far from it. But we will not allow ourselves to be removed from the anchorage of our salvation. (ibid)

**We are now concerned with justification. …We know that good works ought to be done, but we will talk about that when the proper time comes. Now we are dealing with justification, and here good works should not be so much as mentioned. **post31

**Whoever teaches that good works are indispensable unto salvation, that to gain heaven a person must suffer afflictions and follow the example of Christ and of the saints, is a minister of the Law, of sin, wrath, and of death **(ibid)

**All who say that faith alone in Christ does not justify a person, convert Christ into a minister of sin, a teacher of the Law, and a cruel tyrant who requires the impossible. **(ibid)

We must not drag good works into the article of justification as the monks do who maintain that not only good works, but also the punishment which evildoers suffer for their wicked deeds, deserve everlasting life. … (ibid)

**For this is Antichrist’s doctrine: Faith is no good, unless it is reinforced by works. **post32

Im sure there is lots more, this is what I saw and remembered from the earliest posts of this thread. Faith and works are clearly separate according to Luther and protestantism in general.

Hello Catholic Dude,

Wow! These are some awesome quotes from Luther that drive home your point. Unless Luther repented from such statements I do no know how anyone can believe that Luther felt obedience to God had anything to do with going to heaven, as some on this thread have claimed that he did.

I am especially taken back by your fourth quote from Luther. Boy, a person would surely not want to strive to act in imitation of Christ and the Saints; only a bunch of evil doers, bent on obeying the law, would do that! (I am being sarcastic). I cannot even imagine people following and glorifying a guy who implicates that people are evil for having a desire to act Christlike.

Through out this thread I believe your apologetics skills have developed and you have refined your responses to an art. Awesome post!

Peace,
Steven

Luther

**Whoever teaches that good works are indispensable unto salvation, that to gain heaven a person must suffer afflictions and follow the example of Christ and of the saints, is a minister of the Law, of sin, wrath, and of death **

 

[Catholic_Dude]

TertiumQuid-
(concerning post415)

… I have never argued all sins are the same. In fact, I would argue that the Bible teaches degrees of punishment and degrees of sin.

I cant remember if I posted quotes from Luther on this, but I do remember some protestant posts in this thread explaining that for Luther any sin was grave sin, I even read in this thread that Luther even considered temptations as sins.

Again, this was never my point. Quoting parables to define doctrine is not always the best way to glean a correct understanding of the Bible. I would rather go to passages that address “sin” like Romans 1:18-3:20; Jer 17:9; Gal. 5:16-21; Eph. 2:1-3; 4:17-19; Heb 3:12; James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; 5:17, etc.

Parables were the main way Jesus taught people, I find them very informative about what He expected.
(If you could, start posting the verse and citation instead of just the citation, and highlight the parts your focusing on. Im not sure how to reply to each one of these because I dont know what your trying to say in each.)
-Rm1:18-3:20, thats 3 chapters covering a lot of stuff, I dont know what your thinking about.
-Jer17:9, I just commented on this in response to Assurance in post 455.
-Gal5:16-21, I commented on this way back in post34.
-Eph. 2:1-3; 4:17-19, this is a good reference.
-Heb3:12, another good reference, but it seems to go against FA.
-Jas2:10f, I dont know what your saying here.
-1Jn3:4,5:17, another good reference, but again it seems to go agains FA.

Jesus makes his point in verses 31-32. “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you. 32“For John came…”

Now Jesus was speaking to the chief priests and the elders (aka: pious religious people). He says that gross sinners will enter the kingdom of God because they believed on Jesus. Later in Matthew 23, the Jewish religious leaders are said to be “sons of hell”. So much for their good works.

Your misunderstanding what its saying. Jesus is not saying to go into a life of prostitution because prostitutes are the ones entering heaven. Here is the parable again Matt21:28 “What do you think? A man had two sons; and he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 29 And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he repented and went. 30 And he went to the second and said the same; and he answered, 'I go, sir,’ but did not go.
31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the harlots believed him; and even when you saw it, you did not afterward repent and believe him.
Entering the vineyard means to change your ways and go out and do God’s work. Saying your going to do God’s work and doing it are two different things. The chief priests claimed they were doing God’s work, but didnt do it. The taxers and prostitutes clearly had no intention to, BUT they later REPENTED (ie were sorry and vowed to change their ways) and went to work. There is not “gross sinners” entering heaven here as you make it sound, these people changed their ways, ie “go and sin no more”. Also “believing” in Jesus doesnt mean a single prayer and instant justification, it means do you believe He is your Lord?..then OBEY what he says and you will be rewarded just as He says. Faith Alone has no grounds here at all, for it rests entirely on words, just like the second son.
(cont)

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Again, my point was not that all sins are equal. My point is the seriousness of sin. Catholics have accused Protestants of taking sins lightly. The opposite is the case, especially with Luther:

“Luther examined the Great Commandment, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind and all your strength, and your neighbor as yourself.” Then he asked himself, “What is the Great Transgression?” Some answer this question by saying that the great sin is murder, adultery, blasphemy, or unbelief. Luther disagreed. He concluded that if the Great Commandment was to love God with all the heart, then the Great Transgression was to fail to love God with all the heart. He saw a balance between great obligations and great sins. Most people do not think that way.

Why didnt Luther simply cite the words of Jesus, “If you love me keep my commandments”?

None of us keeps the Great Commandment for five minutes.

We may think that we do in a surface way, but upon a moment’s reflection it is clear that none of us loves God with our whole heart or our whole mind or our whole strength. No one loves his neighbor as he loves himself. We may do everything in our power to avoid thinking about this at a deep level, but there is always that nagging sense in the back of our minds to accuse us of the certain knowledge that in fact we violate the Great Commandment every day.
This is totally unChristian and unBiblical. As I have said before, show me where the Bible even hints that Christians cant avoid doing evil for 5 minutes. This kind of talk is anti Gospel for it gives people the impression that sins cant be avoided and that pleasing God is impossible.
This is just amazing to me, where is the hope, desire to do good, love, etc with the way Luther is talking? This leads to total devistation of the worst level. And as I concluded from the earliest posts, FA was not the issue, it was the solution. This is truly a disease and unChristian attitude to teach people we cant avoid sin for five minutes and that as Christians we all break the greatest commandment every day.

You respond to my comments like Im misinterpreting what your saying but in your response you confirm what I said.

Like Isaiah, we also know that no one else keeps the Great Commandment either. Herein is our comfort: Nobody is perfect. We all fall short of perfect love for God, so why worry about it?

UnBiblical, UnChristian blasphemy of our Lord Jesus and His teachings.

Notice that with unChristian talk like this not a single word of our Lord can be found cited as hinting at such things.

Also grounds for Christians to not try to avoiding sins as well as OSAS type gospel.

It doesn’t drive sane fellows to the confessional for six hours a day. If God punished everyone who failed to keep the Great Commandment, He would have to punish everyone in the world. The test is too great, too demanding; it is not fair. God will have to judge us all on a curve. Luther didn’t see it that way. He realized that if God graded on a curve, He would have to compromise His own holiness.

Where is the Bible quotes? WHERE? God gives Christians everything they need, they are not tempted beyond their ability. He knows the heart and sees the deeds. This total depravity is unChristian on all levels, not one passage of the words of Jesus will give people such an impression.
Show us one passage from Jesus that indicates this depraved attitude, JUST ONE!

To count on God doing so is supreme arrogance and supreme foolishness as well. …
…(edited for size)]
…What wonder then that his majesty overpowers us and shatters!”

UnBiblical, UnChristian.

(Source: RC Sproul: The Holiness of God)

OK, I was right, it was the total depravity and osas type teachings, RC Sproul is a Calvinist and belives this type of total depravity stuff. Are you Calvinist or something?

 

[BlindSheep]

mhansen:

Contarini summed up quite well the intention behind this letter, so I defer to his post. If we took everything at face value, we’d be cutting our hands off and gouging out our eyes, as Christ said to do if they cause us to sin. In this case, and in the case of what Christ said, I think context is key.

Mike

Who can honestly say their hands or eyes cause them to sin?? It sound to me like this was Jesus’ response to someone who was making a lame excuse - “I can’t help it, it’s my eyes!”

 

[TertiumQuid]

These responses are directed towards post 375
Catholic Dude:

Then the idea that a person can feel justified at a single moment in time by faith is totally hollow and pure deception.

This is an example of the logical fallacy, “post hoc ergo proctor hoc”- and at this point in this thread I am bewildered by your misunderstanding.
Catholic Dude:

Do these works come by the free will of the person or do they come all of the sudden and you dont realize you did them till after they were done?

Good works are motivated by love. See Romans 13:8-10. They were also prepared in advance for us to do by God. See Eph. 2. In other words, Christians were predestined to do them.
Catholic Dude:

When a person leaves that church building after the sermon and they dont show good works then what?

If one after professing faith in Christ continually lives a lifestyle contrary to that described in Romans 12-15, I would have to assume that person is not a Christian. In the same way, if I get married and take vows to love my wife but go on to live an active lifestyle that violates the marriage contract, it usually means I don’t really love my wife.
Catholic Dude:

Do they conclude their faith was weak and unaccepted by God?

No.

“This faith is different in degrees, weak or strong; (Heb. 5:13–14, Rom. 4:19–20, Matt. 6:30, Matt. 8:10) may be often and many ways assailed, and weakened, but gets the victory: (Luke 22:31–32, Eph. 6:16, 1 John 5:4–5) growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance, through Christ, (Heb. 6:11–12, Heb. 10:22) who is both the author and finisher of our faith. (Heb. 12:2)”
Catholic Dude:

A Catholic is assured by Jesus that things like the Sacraments really do forgive sins and edify, thats not the picture I see being painted by Luther.

Protestants are assured by the sacraments that their sins have been forgiven.

I would like to ask you to stop using the word “Luther” unless you plan on doing your own research. I do not deny that Protestants have a different understand of sacraments. I’m just simply too weary to launch off into another direction with you. There comes a point in most “Luther” discussions in which I weary of continually doing the work necessary to explain Luther’s view and contrast it with the Roman Catholic Church. Luther did many writings on the sacraments. If you want to see a “painting” by Luther, go read Luther.
Catholic Dude:

All these years I have come to understand by Protestants and Protestant pastors that with Faith Alone is a sure path because you know your justifed, unlike the Catholic who is constantly questioning himself about did he do enough. Well to tell the truth, I actually see the exact opposite case with this as well as with many other protestant teachings I have encountered.

I’m not sure what you mean.
Catholic Dude:

Very true, thats a testament to us that Christianity is not about people who never sinned before, its about sinners changing their ways. And if they can do it anyone can.

You’ve missed the point. The Bible doesn’t record the good deeds of perfect people. It records God using sinful people for His purpose.
Catholic Dude:

I agree.

good.
Catholic Dude:

Your admitting what I have been saying the whole thread. Two things. One the idea that you cant stop sinning. I see this over and over by you, contarini and Luther. It is totally unBiblical. A good Christian with a well formed conscience doesnt sin in a grave way every day in thought word and deed.

You haven’t thought critically about the sin nature in humans and the holiness and perfection of God, as well as the perfect work of Christ.

-continued-

James Swan

 

[TertiumQuid]

These responses are directed towards post 375
Catholic Dude:

Yes they might be tempted, and be drawn to sin, but a Baptized Christian knows thats due to human weakness, it is in no way the chasm that Luther paints is. Luther’s view is unBiblical. And as I have said over and over again, this error FORCES the protestant to say “it HAS TO BE Faith Alone” because you paint yourself falling down a bottomless pit and only a magic wish can save you. Thats not Biblical.

The Bible says:

If we claim to be without sin, we **deceive ourselves ** and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Romans 7- “14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Catholic Dude:

Jesus and Paul call the person to be holy and blameless, thats not impossible, not easy, but not impossible.

It’s called sanctification. The sanctification process is a daily battle.

“Sanctification is throughout, in the whole man; (1 Thess. 5:23) yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part; (1 John 1:10, Rom. 7:18,23, Phil. 3:12) whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. (Gal. 5:17, 1 Pet. 2:11)”

“In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail; (Rom. 7:23) yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome; (Rom. 6:14, 1 John 5:4, Eph. 4:15–16) and so, the saints grow in grace, (2 Pet. 3:18, 2 Cor. 3:18) perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Cor. 7:1)”
Catholic Dude:

Protestant “expectations” for salvation are not only too out of reach of reality, they make the person totally powerless. Can you tell anyone “all you do is sin night and day” and expect them to think they can ever do good?

I get the feeling after 400 posts in this thread, you not only misunderstand Luther, but Protestant theology as well.

-continued-

James Swan

 

[TertiumQuid]

These responses are directed towards post 375
Catholic Dude:

The Biblical-Catholic Gospel finds the person in a pit, Jesus throws them a rope, they can chose to grab on or not. If they grab on they are not out of the doghouse, but none the less in a position to be pulled out of the hole. They respond to the commands of Christ and obey what He says, they do this by faith since they must trust in Him 100%, but at the same time prove this faith by works. This whole time they are being pulled down by gravity and their hands are getting chafed, they may slip but Jesus is ready to toss them the rope again. They are subject to gravity and chaffing the whole rescue time, but if they remain steadfast Jesus will pull them out.

then why does Paul say:

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Why does Paul say:

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Catholic Dude:

The Protestant view is you find yourself falling in a bottomless pit, you hear Jesus can save you, you pray he saves you, and all of the sudden you find yourself in an elevator going up. Can you fall? If you could, wouldnt FA put you right back on track?

This is not what Protestants believe. It is not what I believe. It is not what Luther believeds. Where do you get your information? Are you making it up as you go along?
Catholic Dude:

I dont know what more to say other than, if you think your breaking the greatest commandment every day then you need to show me where the Bible says this is what Christians do.

Reread Paul’s description of himself in Romans 7. In fact, re-read Romans.

Regards,
James Swan

 

[Catholic_Dude]

TertiumQuid-

Yes. 1 John 3:23 “This is his command: to believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ and to love one another as he commanded us.”24 All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them]

1 John 2: 3 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. … 9 He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and in it there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But he who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.] 12 “I write to you dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.”

1 John 5: 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. ]… …13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

(the stuff in brackets I added)
These verses dont support the instant and complete justification that FA indicates. In your first passage that is totally conditional, if the person does not do what Jesus commands then they are not saved. Just as with Baptism your sins are forgiven and you are fully ready to live a Christian life, you are put in jeopardy if you turn from the faith or commit grave sins.
There is a difference between sins forgiven and going to Heaven, just because your sins are forgiven at one point doesnt mean you will go to heaven.

I have never met a Roman Catholic who knows they are saved. In fact, the very well respected Roman Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott has said, “The reason for the uncertainty of the state of grace lies in this: that without a special revelation nobody can with certainty of faith know whether or not he has fulfilled all the conditions which are necessary for achieving justification.”

There is a distinction that needs to be made here. Catholics believed we are saved, being saved, and will be saved. The issue your talking about here lies on the “will be saved” aspect.
Here is an example that I have used before, a man has fallen in a pit and is falling down down down, Jesus throws him a rope, the man grabs on and the man is saved, but is not out of the pit. The man is being pulled up out of the pit, being saved, but is not out of the pit. The man will finally be taken out of the pit for good, will be saved. When the man disobeys Jesus he chooses to resist the work Jesus is doing by pulling him out, if it is a bad enough sin its like he let go of that rope. Jesus will not abandon him and toss the rope to him again if the man requests. The man is never sure he is going to make out of the pit, not because Jesus is not trustworthy, but because the man has the option to turn away at any time.

Many Protestants think that once saved means they are out of the pit. This is why they get offended when Catholics say that man can lose his salvation, they mistakenly thinking that we are saying we were out of the pit at one time but find ourself in it again. They have reason to be uneasy about that just as Catholics should…if that were the case, but its not. When Catholics talk about loosing salvation it refers to the part where Jesus is pulling them up while they can cooperate by obeying His commands or turn away and do their own things which will lead to doom.
(cont)

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I say you would have every right to be mad. If you think your works somehow contribute to your eventual justification, if I’m right, everything you have done has been in vain.

Paul talks about running in vain all the time, thats because it is possible to throw it all away at a single moment.

“Roman Catholic theology distinguishes between mortal and venial sins. … The Reformation rejected this works-orientation, but the Reformers did not reject the idea of degrees of sin. John Calvin said that all sin is mortal in the sense that it deserves death, but no sin is so severe that it can destroy the grace of justification.

This is where a lot of this mess resides. Calvin clearly believed in osas. If no sin is severe enough then why are there so many warning all through the Bible? Is there a passage that says no sin can separate us from Jesus?
Sounds like Luther’s words:
“No sin can separate us from the Lamb”
Now that I think more and more about this, it looks like people like Calvin and Luther were in total denial, they never would openly say sin sin sin, but in their minds they believe that no sin would separate them from the Lamb.

All sins are serious, though some sins are judged by both God and our society to be worse than others.” Source: Sproul, R…

Again you claim all sins are serious, but at the same time claim that certain sins dont have any bearing on your salvation.

Salvation is a gift- Gifts usually aren’t “hard”. They are things given to us that we didn’t earn or make ourselves. (See Ephesians 2:8-10)

Jesus says this in Matt7:
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate [which] is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate [which] is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
It is clear that getting to Heaven is not an easy task.
In Eph2:8 that is not talking about instant and complete justification. The gift is God’s grace, it enables us to repsond with faith and do good works. If we dont respond then its like we threw away that gift.

The Bible teaches that fallen man thinks believing in Jesus is foolish: read 1 Corinthians: 1:18-31.

Thats another issue. That passage is for people who dont want to have anything to do with Christianity and see it as a weird thing.
I was talking about those who DO want to be Christians and think its as easy as saying “Jesus save me” and then they dont have to do anything else…thats FA, a simple act of faith and poof…sudden complete justifiaction.

I find the response of those listening to Jesus in Matthew 18 quite telling: “Who then can be saved?” Indeed, those hearing Jesus realized if even a guy who (allegedly) kept almost all the commandments outwardly wasn’t close to being saved, no one was.

And what is the lesson? That getting to heaven doesn rest in a single act of faith.
They heard Jesus loud and clear, they knew the Gospel was a hard road.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Assurance-

…Where does “faith working through love” come in? This act of love follows on the footsteps of faith which apprehends the promised mercy as a latter, second activity (in us, it’s not a “First Thing” to quote C.S. Lewis!) of the soul. “First the hand of the beggar grasps the treasure; after that he rejoices; after that he loves.” (quoted in Francis Peiper, Christian Dogmatics, vol. 2, p. 427). This is what Jesus was explaining to the Pharisees in Luke 7 about the woman

who displayed the evidence of love because she had realized that she needed to be forgiven much. We can all say the same. And to us broken sinners as well, He says: “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”
Here is what Luke 7 says, ZERO hint of FA:
44 Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house,

you gave me no water for my feet,
but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.

45 You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet.

46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment.

47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little." 48 And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, “Who is this, who even forgives sins?” 50 And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Read the last verse, to say Faith Alone saved the woman is a total distortion of what Jesus was teaching. By faith people act and are saved.

Steve, in short, love is a “good work”, and involves something we do for God. God commands us to do this with our whole heart and we can’t do that… therefore our love can never justify us. Only Christ’s love can justify us by faith.

Total distortion of the Gospel and blasphemy of our Lord. Not one word have you cited of Jesus EVER HINTING of such a thing. Never is obeying our Lord seen as an impossible task.

Catholic Dude, you might find all of the above quite informative to as you try to understand how folks from the Reformation see faith - and yes, we believe it is how Jesus, the apostles, Paul and the Fathers viewed faith as well.

I will look into that link when I find time, I am VERY interested to see where the Fathers were Lutherans in disguise.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Assurance-
(concerning post424)

Further, when the Apostle Paul talks about working out one’s salvation in “fear and trembling” is he talking about doing good works that make him acceptable and “heaven-worthy” before God
(like Trent: Canon 32 “If anyone says that good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase in grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase in glory, let him be anathema.”),

Here is that passage you cite from Paul in Phil2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. 14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning, 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.
It is very clear that they were to always be on guard, to strive and be BLAMELESS before God and man, IF NOT v16 all that they had done up to then was IN VAIN.
(Im not sure what you dont agree with on canon 32?)

or was Paul already perfectly righteous and holy in Christ, in whom he had all things
(Unlike Trent: Canon 24 If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema).

Phil3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained. 17 Brethren, join in imitating me, and mark those who so live as you have an example in us.

Trent: If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through God works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema

OK, this seems clear to me. Even though I cling to Christ’s blood and righteousness - His perfect life and innocent death as my only hope before a holy God, I can still, somehow, do “works of superrogation” that go beyond what God has called and expects me to do, even though Christ explicitly says we are to say “we have only done what is required of us”.

Phil4:15 And you Philippians yourselves know that in the beginning of the gospel, when I left Macedo’nia, no church entered into partnership with me in giving and receiving except you only; 16 for even in Thessaloni’ca you sent me help once and again. 17 Not that I seek the gift; but I seek the fruit which increases to your credit. 18 I have received full payment, and more; I am filled, having received from Epaphrodi’tus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God.
Gal6:7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 **And let us not grow weary in **well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Assurance-
concerning this post425, I will get to it and the rest later.
but a few quick questions.

The following is a quote from our Confessions (Phillip Melanchton)

Is this the Augsburg Confession?

Commenting on II Peter 1:10:

Who is commenting here, Melanchton? What work is it, it says "Apology XX:13) but I dont know what that is.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Im up to post425 and I hope to get up to date tonight.

 

[AJC]

What I understand of Martin Luther he was not advocating committing sin, though I admit to read him, at times, one could come to that conclusion. The quote you site has more to do with the infinite mercy of God than a man’s ability to sin with impunity.

AJC
Catholic Dude:

I kept hearing people say that luther said this:No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.

Well I looked around and it means what it says.

I found the letter he said this HERE.
It is from a page devoted to Luther’s writings,
located HERE.

Im so happy I found it! Im saving this!
What do you think?

 

[TertiumQuid]

This response is for post 376
Catholic Dude:

What is “a forensic pronouncement of innocence”?

I suggest getting a good theological dictionary and looking it up the term “forensic”. It would be a good study for you.
Catholic Dude:

Also the part where you said “the sinner is buried with Christ”. Paul mentions how this is done in Rom6:

What does this have to do with Luther’s statements in your original thread?

From now on, I will not indulge in diversions like this. If you want to discuss Luther’s statements in your original post- fine- otherwise- let’s not waste each other’s time.

Regards
James Swan

 

[Catholic_Dude]

(concerning posts 427 & 429)

Assurance:

I apologize to everyone over my incompetence with putting links in here.

Here they are again Steve. I think they are THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, and are ultimately, what was driving Luther:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1007135&postcount=87

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1007136&postcount=88

or the whole thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=73096&page=1&pp=100

I read those links and from what I could understand you were misunderstanding what the Church teaches. There is no infallible certainty of going to Heaven (except in the case of a private revelation) because we dont know how we will act tomorrow or in the fututre. To say you know for sure your going to Heaven means one of the two:

1. you know the future and know how you will act and not do something to lose your salvation.
   2)you believe in OSAS and it really doesnt matter what you do in the future.

based on what you have posted one post earlier, you dont seem to believe in OSAS, therefore you cant claim your going to Heaven beyond a doubt unless you know the future and know your not going to put yourself in a situation to lose your salvation. Thats all the Church is saying there, that while we know what we must do to be saved, we dont make the claim with 100% certainty that we will remain on the correct path.

This kind of fits into that topic of the second coming where Jesus compares it to a robber and a home (Mt24:43), if the people knew WHEN their house was going to get robbed they would guard it, but NOBODY knows when so they must always be on guard. Same thing with your comments, you dont know what tomorrow brings and to say will 100% confidence that your home free is like saying you know when the robber is going to break in.

 

[angelmessenger]

Hi,

All these misconceived ideas concerning what the bible actually teaches arise from the fact that certain people think they can interpret the bible for themselves. God gave us a Church to do this–No one man can interpret the Bible it’s impossible!

The early Church knew the truth and fought against those who would try to distort this truth, (Heretics) We are still fighting the heresies of false teachings, (those who believe in Sola Scriptura) in doing this they are actually going against what the Bible teaches anyway!

God bless you

Jan