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workingman
Guest
Tanner9188, No answer yet to post #160. You asked for biblical proof of the papacy and it was given. God laid out the papacy.
- Status
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Tanner9188
Guest
**Glad you jumped in and why would copy and pasting Scripture be unpopular?
First of all you must see that Jesus is speaking to all of the disciples in Matthew 16; this is why three things must be considered when looking at Scripture 1) what does Scripture say about something, like salvation, as a whole, then 2) What is the theme of the Book or section of a book you are studying, and 3) is the passage looked at in it full context? No always, but many times you will miss the main point of you focus too heavily on 1 or 2 versus; which is the example you have here.
First, who is the audience to whom Jesus is addressing; I always like to look at that aspect because it gives many clues as to where the writer is going. So lets start with the context and the audience.
Here is the proper context of the passage versus 13-20 "Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 And they said, “Some {say} John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” He *said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal {this} to you, but My Father who is in heaven. "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.
In blue it is easy to establish to whom Jesus is addressing; the disciples…right?
So Jesus is getting a report; some disciple or disciples stated what was said. - see red
Notice that Jesus directed the question that Peter answered to all the disciples; Peter was almost always the first to speak; part of why Jesus made him a leader of the apostles until the maverick, Paul, came to town. To affirm this, also notice the warning Jesus gave to ALL of them; not just Peter. If Jesus was singling Peter out, then he would not need to ask all of them and then warn all of them about what? What Peter said.
Now where did this confession come from according to Jesus? From the Father and not from men. Two things, the main point of the passage, when taken in context is do not tell anyone that He was the Christ. Why isn’t the main point that Peter has power to loose and bind and give you the keys to the gates of heaven; because Jesus is telling all the diciples this truth about them; not just Peter.
How can we look at the whole of Scripture to see if we are correct and does this apply only to Peter, only to the apostles and/or all people?
We have to move to Matthew 18:16; Jesus is teaching to His followers and His apostles, we know this because the “child” was right there and he was in full teaching mode and in chapter 19; it speaks of the crowds following Him. Now Jesus says the following and familiar words “Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” Since we know the key to the gates of heaven are used in conjunction with the loosing and binding and we know that all of heaven and earth are in agreement…right…that is what it says.
So we have established that in Matthew 16 is speaking to all the disciples and the warning to all of them is don’t tell any one I am the Christ; therefore the loosing and binding is in effect applicable to all the apostles. We have established that Matthew 18; Jesus is speaking to His apostles and His disciples/learners, those following Him. He tells them that they can loose and bind; therefore the message also applies to us as well…how can this be and how does it apply?
CONTINUED – NEXT POST**
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Tanner9188
Guest
Continued from previous post
**We must look at what loose is binding is? It was a rabbinical teaching using the law as an example and it went like this; “if you obey the law you are loosed from your sins”…is that true, yes!, but no one could keep the law and "if you do not obey the law, then “you are bound in your sins of you do not keep the law” Would heaven be in agreement? Yes! Would the earth; the teachers of the law agree with that?; yes.
Now move the concept into the message of the gospel and see how it applies to Peter, to the apostles and to everyone. "If you give the message of the gospel and the receiver of the message rejects the gospel, which is rejecting Christ, are they bound in their sin? Yes! Would heaven agree; the message was from heaven; so yes! The earth; the teachers or messengers agree? Yes If you accept the gospel, which is accepting Christ, then are you loosed from your sins? Yes! and heaven and earth would agree.
What is the requirement of being a messenger? You must know the gospel and be able to articulate the message, which many of us can do. You must have someone that can here your message and we run across them everyday. Therefore, since the message can be delivered via the messenger and the recipient can accept or reject; we have established that it applies, the power to loose and bind, to all Christians who can articulate the Scripture’s gospel (this ability is a gift of the Holy Spirit). Now we are left with the keys; simple they open and shut the door; open to whom? those who accept and closed to those who reject. Why is anyone locked out of heaven; for unbelief…right? Why is anyone allowed in? Because of belief.
I hope you understand why it is important to know the whole, look at the book or part and know the theme and look at the versus in full context of the message; otherwise you end in grave mistake and many cults and ism’s have their roots in this erroneous activity of pulling a verse here and there to fit their theology.**
**Now look at Revelation 3:7-9 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this: 'I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name.”
Note two things; Jesus has the Key of David and the open and closed door to heaven; it is the same analogy using similar language with the same meaning used in Matthew 16 & 18. What is this key or authority that opens and closes? Is it the message or the messenger? The message of the gospel, which is what Peter confessed, that Jesus is the Son of the Living God, that is the good news, the gospel.
Also you must note that Jesus was speaking to all the disciples, which means they were all given the key (the message or good news) and all have the power to loose and bind and further Matthew 18 tells us that it applies to all of us; this was no special reward to Peter, but certainly it is a privilege and responsibility to know the gospel, having the the authority from heaven, because the authority is in the message, not the messenger.
Also, you cannot overlook what Jesus actually said “I will build my church”. We were given the text in the Greek; so as not to make the mistake of the play on words Jesus used to make Peter into something that He is not. Technically, the earthly foundation which is the message is the law and the prophets and the apostles according to what Scripture says concerning a foundation, but foundational in that they are Gods special messengers used to deliver the divine message that allows people in or keeps them out of the kingdom.
A side note: You cannot read Isaiah 22:22 without the entire context of the passage, which is versus 15-25 and must know the whole of the OT, which speaks of and points to who? Christ! So many say Peter because they get hung up on the single word “key”, which is a big mistake in interpretation rules. Plus they overlook the words of revelation 3 and Isaiah 9, which also must be considered because we want to always remember to look at the whole, the part and the passage to make sure they are all consistent in agreement.
Final sidenote: the word “you” used in Matthew 16:19 is an indefinite pronoun, which means it can be both singular or plural and it is used as a plural, whereas in verse 18 it is used as a singular pronoun because the Lord stressed it.
I hope you are able to 1) follow along and 2) see how a single passage can be grossly taken out of context when proper rules are not applied.
The practical evidence is that we can give the gospel and we know if people reject the gospel, they are doomed and those that accept are saved. Most people are saved by hearing the message and then accepting - I say most because there are still plenty who have never had the privilege to hear the gospel. We were given the “great commission” to go to all the world; it applies to everyone who has been given gift by the Holy Spirit of preaching and teaching. For further understanding I suggest you do a word search on the all the words related to rocks, stones, foundation and see how they fit into the play on words with Peter and how the proper Greek term is used in the rest of Scripture, which you will find Jesus as the Chief cornerstone, the rock and the other similar names; whereas Peter and the rest of us are referred to as the parts or bricks that make of the spiritual building of the church that Christ is building.
**
**We must look at what loose is binding is? It was a rabbinical teaching using the law as an example and it went like this; “if you obey the law you are loosed from your sins”…is that true, yes!, but no one could keep the law and "if you do not obey the law, then “you are bound in your sins of you do not keep the law” Would heaven be in agreement? Yes! Would the earth; the teachers of the law agree with that?; yes.
Now move the concept into the message of the gospel and see how it applies to Peter, to the apostles and to everyone. "If you give the message of the gospel and the receiver of the message rejects the gospel, which is rejecting Christ, are they bound in their sin? Yes! Would heaven agree; the message was from heaven; so yes! The earth; the teachers or messengers agree? Yes If you accept the gospel, which is accepting Christ, then are you loosed from your sins? Yes! and heaven and earth would agree.
What is the requirement of being a messenger? You must know the gospel and be able to articulate the message, which many of us can do. You must have someone that can here your message and we run across them everyday. Therefore, since the message can be delivered via the messenger and the recipient can accept or reject; we have established that it applies, the power to loose and bind, to all Christians who can articulate the Scripture’s gospel (this ability is a gift of the Holy Spirit). Now we are left with the keys; simple they open and shut the door; open to whom? those who accept and closed to those who reject. Why is anyone locked out of heaven; for unbelief…right? Why is anyone allowed in? Because of belief.
I hope you understand why it is important to know the whole, look at the book or part and know the theme and look at the versus in full context of the message; otherwise you end in grave mistake and many cults and ism’s have their roots in this erroneous activity of pulling a verse here and there to fit their theology.**
**Now look at Revelation 3:7-9 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this: 'I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name.”
Note two things; Jesus has the Key of David and the open and closed door to heaven; it is the same analogy using similar language with the same meaning used in Matthew 16 & 18. What is this key or authority that opens and closes? Is it the message or the messenger? The message of the gospel, which is what Peter confessed, that Jesus is the Son of the Living God, that is the good news, the gospel.
Also you must note that Jesus was speaking to all the disciples, which means they were all given the key (the message or good news) and all have the power to loose and bind and further Matthew 18 tells us that it applies to all of us; this was no special reward to Peter, but certainly it is a privilege and responsibility to know the gospel, having the the authority from heaven, because the authority is in the message, not the messenger.
Also, you cannot overlook what Jesus actually said “I will build my church”. We were given the text in the Greek; so as not to make the mistake of the play on words Jesus used to make Peter into something that He is not. Technically, the earthly foundation which is the message is the law and the prophets and the apostles according to what Scripture says concerning a foundation, but foundational in that they are Gods special messengers used to deliver the divine message that allows people in or keeps them out of the kingdom.
A side note: You cannot read Isaiah 22:22 without the entire context of the passage, which is versus 15-25 and must know the whole of the OT, which speaks of and points to who? Christ! So many say Peter because they get hung up on the single word “key”, which is a big mistake in interpretation rules. Plus they overlook the words of revelation 3 and Isaiah 9, which also must be considered because we want to always remember to look at the whole, the part and the passage to make sure they are all consistent in agreement.
Final sidenote: the word “you” used in Matthew 16:19 is an indefinite pronoun, which means it can be both singular or plural and it is used as a plural, whereas in verse 18 it is used as a singular pronoun because the Lord stressed it.
I hope you are able to 1) follow along and 2) see how a single passage can be grossly taken out of context when proper rules are not applied.
The practical evidence is that we can give the gospel and we know if people reject the gospel, they are doomed and those that accept are saved. Most people are saved by hearing the message and then accepting - I say most because there are still plenty who have never had the privilege to hear the gospel. We were given the “great commission” to go to all the world; it applies to everyone who has been given gift by the Holy Spirit of preaching and teaching. For further understanding I suggest you do a word search on the all the words related to rocks, stones, foundation and see how they fit into the play on words with Peter and how the proper Greek term is used in the rest of Scripture, which you will find Jesus as the Chief cornerstone, the rock and the other similar names; whereas Peter and the rest of us are referred to as the parts or bricks that make of the spiritual building of the church that Christ is building.
**
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Tanner9188
Guest
**Show me where you asked me "I will ask of you the same questions I asked Tanner, and he curiously refrained from answering. How do you know the Holy Spirit is confirming your interpretation of the Scriptures?Hisalone,
Instead of merely asserting that the Church was trying to murder Luther why not assert that they are in league with the Illuminati and the NWO to enslave the Masses in a One World Socialist Utopia ruled by the Antichrist!!! .:banghead:
Do you realize that this ad hominem approach furthers nothing but dissension? Your fundamentalist traditions are beginning to show through, that severe anti-intellectualism and, well frankly, pagan vengefulness that causes otherwise good-hearted people to single out scapegoats for their own misunderstandings. I am sure that you feel justified in your little crusade here over the internet to show us all how misinformed and tired your anachronsims are, but really, do you have anything to offer the understanding of Luther’s role in the History of the West, let alone Christendom and the Church?
In the vast multiverses of the world wide web, you have found nothing more than an R.C. Sproul video and an assertion that your interpretation of the Scriptures, even though far different than Luther’s, is proof that Luther was right about Sola Scriptura?
My 8-year old LIES better than that!
What are your credentials? Are you so proud that you assert your own authority over that of countless scholars and theologians who have devoted their lives to these issues, including Luther?
I will ask of you the same questions I asked Tanner, and he curiously refrained from answering. How do you know the Holy Spirit is confirming your interpretation of the Scriptures? Do you get a warm, fuzzy feeling? Burning in the Bosom? You sleep better? Dreams and visions? A majority of independent TBN preachers agree with you? Calvin agrees with you on all five TULIPs? The Salvation Army rings a bell? What is it?
Please . . .do, tell.
I will answer here and now; if one has the Holy Spirit He will lead to the truth of God; there is only one truth of God. This is not something comes easy; it takes a lot of time and effort to rightly divide the Word. The rewards are great and His people do know the truth; the more diligent the more He reveals about Himself.
It is the natural man that cannot understand. Look at the parable of the soils and the explanation Jesus gives concerning the soils; the last soil, of the 4 soils, was the only one that both heard AND understood, then bore fruit to prove it. That simplicity of words from the Lord speaks volumes concerning salvation or lack thereof. Hear the gospel, believe the gospel, then bear fruit…it is really that simplistic.
You have no idea how much people like myself and HisAlone and other protestants that actually read, study diligently and understand His Word by the grace of God; we pity the brightest in this bunch because the lack of knowledge and understanding is so far off the map; that it is very obvious to us that you do not and cannot at this point understand the Scripture. As long as you depend on some organization to interpret in a manner not in accord with Scripture or God IMO & IMObservations; then you will never come to the knowledge of the truth.
If it wasn’t so serious, because souls are on the line, it would be laughable; but it is no joking matter to us or to God.**
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Tanner9188
Guest
If I were anti-Catholic; I would not be here. Don’t confuse zeal for the Lord and all people for hatred. I have received more insults and false accusations in the short time I have been here from many, if not most, Catholic people I’ve encountered; you are now included. What a shame to be brought about about people that claim to be Christians; yet don’t understand a basic command from Jesus concerning their neighbor.
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josie_L
Guest
Your zeal as you say is nothing short of rudeness (you have called people here lazy more than once and have spread lies about the church, i.e., Foxes book of Martyrs, I have seen nothing but contempt for the people for whom you are talking too and then you have the audacity to say we have attacked you. Good grief.
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workingman
Guest
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workingman
Guest
I quoted a few more verses above that also adress the issue of Peter as the head or first Pope. I am not going to draw into the literal deffinitions of Peter meaning rock ect… Christ is the chief cornerstone but Peter is the rock upon that the visible Church will be built with Peter as the head on earth.
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josie_L
Guest
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josie_L
Guest
This was taken from a post in a previous thread by another poster who I’m sure won’t mind me quoting her (thanks Angel17)
**Ther are links from Ancient Israel to the New Israel =The church
Ancient israel was very differnt then most Nations at the time.
The MOTHER of the King, was the Queen, not Wife. and acted as intercessor to people
Link it to Mary =Mother of G-d, she is an intercessor for us, and prays for us
Jesus is King = Matches Ancient Israelite King
12 Disciples = the 12 Ministers of Ancient Israel
1 of which was the PRIME minister = Matches Peter
Jesus when he built the Church (the new Israel, you can say) Matched everything together, it fit.**
**Ther are links from Ancient Israel to the New Israel =The church
Ancient israel was very differnt then most Nations at the time.
The MOTHER of the King, was the Queen, not Wife. and acted as intercessor to people
Link it to Mary =Mother of G-d, she is an intercessor for us, and prays for us
Jesus is King = Matches Ancient Israelite King
12 Disciples = the 12 Ministers of Ancient Israel
1 of which was the PRIME minister = Matches Peter
Jesus when he built the Church (the new Israel, you can say) Matched everything together, it fit.**
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raumzeitmc2
Guest
Once again, I think what’s needed here is some historical corrective.
I begin by quoting from:
The Pursuit of the Millennium; Revolutionary Millenarians and Mystical Anarchists of the Middle Ages, Norman Cohn, 1970 (first ed., 1957), Oxford University Press, New York, pp. 211-212 (I’m quoting from my copy, published in 1970):
Mr. Cohn, who “held the Astor-Wolfson Chair at the University of Sussex until his retirement in 1980” writes:
books.google.com/books?id=tDVaYvh4qj0C&pg=PA211&dq=%22For+a+period+of+several+months+starting+in+November+1419%22&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&as_brr=0#v=onepage&q=%22For%20a%20period%20of%20several%20months%20starting%20in%20November%201419%22&f=false
And now Luther, following in the Taborite tradition:
– Opera Latina Varii, vol. II, 107.
Documentation here.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4101985&postcount=275
Next, we have Thomas Müntzer, from his “Sermon to the Princes,” 1524:
http-server.carleton.ca/~jopp/3850/6-1.htm
Last, but by no means least, we have another self-appointed Reformer, John Calvin, who wrote the following to the Protector Somerset (Oct. 22, 1548):
"[Those] who persist in the superstitions of the Roman Antichrist * … DESERVED TO BE REPRESSED BY THE SWORD…”
books.google.com/books?id=tlUYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA173&dq=%22who+persist+in+the+superstitions+of+the+Roman+Antichrist+%22&lr=&ei=JedxSoEdjp4z6OvQ2Q4
In his Defensio orthodoxae fidei de sacra Trinitate… of 1554, Calvin defends the death penalty for “heretics” i.e., anyone who disagrees with him!
From Wikipedia: Michael Servetus.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Servetus#Imprisonment_and_execution
Wikipedia’s notes give Calvin’s Latin, which begins:
"Nunc vero quisquis haereticis et blasphemis iniuste poenam infligi contendet…”
books.google.com/books?id=qSYBAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA4-PA475&dq=%22Nunc+vero+quisquis+haereticis+et+blasphemis%22&lr=&ei=D3EMSrXHHpGqMpSr9fgP&client=firefoxvol.#v=onepage&q=%22Nunc%20vero%20quisquis%20haereticis%20et%20blasphemis%22&f=false
Now contrast all of the above ravings and murderous madness with the peaceful and gentle disposition of the Pope and Trent.
Ludwig von Pastor, The history of the popes from the close of the Middle Ages: drawn from the secret archives of the Vatican and other original sources, 1951, Antrobus, Frederick Ignatius, Kerr, Ralph Francis, Graf, Ernest, London : K. Paul, Trench, Trubner, vol. 16, p. 317.
archive.org/details/historyofthepope16pastuoft
Just something to think about.*
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Tanner9188
Guest
**You did not seem to learn anything is regards to seeking the truth and putting things into context; you cannot pull a passage; then impose on it; you must look at the whole, the book or part of the book, then the context, then the verse to make sure all is in accord. There is no proof of succession, the nature of your Church, here. This is the fulfilling of Prophesy.
Context ACTS 1:15-26 "At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said, "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. “For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry.” (Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out. And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) “For it is written in the book of Psalms, ‘LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE, AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT’; and, ‘LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE.’ “Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us-- beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us–one of these {must} become a witness with us of His resurrection.” So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.
This was prophesied by God in Psalm 109:7-9 And let an accuser stand at his right hand. When he is judged, let him come forth guilty, And let his prayer become sin. Let his days be few; Let another take his office.
Which means the choosing was of God by the casting of lots; so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.**
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Tanner9188
Guest
CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST
**What you said is true regarding: “St. Paul is referring to, it is the very interpretation of scripture handed down to them by Christ” ( i.e. Sacred Tradition) We agree; it is the Scripture, which all the ECF’s would say tradition meant the teachings of the apostles lead by the Holy Spirit, which is Scripture.
Your Church has taken to degrees and levels that just do not exist in Scripture; the way of salvation is but one example of many. This is why so much emphasis is put on the “Church”, than upon Scripture, the very words of God. The primary focus for the believer is Christ; not the church. You see this all over this forum from a practical/realistic perspective. It is always easier to speak in terms or things that one understands better; since so much focus is on “church”, catechisms, and dogmas; there imediately becomes less focus on the person of Christ. This why Jesus will one day say to many many souls, “depart from me…I never knew you.”**
**
Romans 8 "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Individuals are lead by the spirit concerning the things of God.
The Spirit testifies or confirms that we are His children. (This is why I am certain of my own salvation)
Romans 8 continued: “He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?” - The question requires a YES! And part of that freely given is knowledge, wisdom and understand of the things of God. The Trinity is what works in the life of each believer, not corporately, but individually. Do you see?
John 3 "He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true. "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.
Listen to Jesus in Luke 10 "At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, "I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from {the} wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.
Luke 11, Jesus says: "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened. "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? "Or {if} he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will* {your} heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?*”
Acts 5, “And we are witnesses of these things; and *{so is} the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.” *
It is late and I have to get up early; I pray the Lord will bless you by His word; for His word is Truth. God bless and good night.**
“men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God.”
**What you said is true regarding: “St. Paul is referring to, it is the very interpretation of scripture handed down to them by Christ” ( i.e. Sacred Tradition) We agree; it is the Scripture, which all the ECF’s would say tradition meant the teachings of the apostles lead by the Holy Spirit, which is Scripture.
Your Church has taken to degrees and levels that just do not exist in Scripture; the way of salvation is but one example of many. This is why so much emphasis is put on the “Church”, than upon Scripture, the very words of God. The primary focus for the believer is Christ; not the church. You see this all over this forum from a practical/realistic perspective. It is always easier to speak in terms or things that one understands better; since so much focus is on “church”, catechisms, and dogmas; there imediately becomes less focus on the person of Christ. This why Jesus will one day say to many many souls, “depart from me…I never knew you.”**
**
****Unfortunately; again you take a passage partly, I say partly this time, out of context because you do not see the whole. First, the Holy Spirit leads individuals, not institutions like the magesterium. Not in the OT nor the NT; this is what i am speaking about, the focus on the "Church: and not on the Person. that passage from john applies to all who believe as the whole of Scripture teaches and therefore that passage also applies to all because Scripture is consistent.
Romans 8 "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Individuals are lead by the spirit concerning the things of God.
The Spirit testifies or confirms that we are His children. (This is why I am certain of my own salvation)
Romans 8 continued: “He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?” - The question requires a YES! And part of that freely given is knowledge, wisdom and understand of the things of God. The Trinity is what works in the life of each believer, not corporately, but individually. Do you see?
John 3 "He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true. "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.
Listen to Jesus in Luke 10 "At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, "I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from {the} wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.
Luke 11, Jesus says: "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened. "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? "Or {if} he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will* {your} heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?*”
Acts 5, “And we are witnesses of these things; and *{so is} the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.” *
It is late and I have to get up early; I pray the Lord will bless you by His word; for His word is Truth. God bless and good night.**
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RobbyS
Guest
The Scriptures are a touchstone, but look at the nature of the writings. The New Testament is not a catechism.
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Tanner9188
Guest
Catholic historians; I assume? Cite your source or keep your comments to yourself.
Perhaps you can debunk this? Better have a box of tissues near by; you will need them.
youtube.com/watch?v=Z-I44rCeA2U
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josie_L
Guest
And God decided that a person can only preach and teach if they are given apostolic authority by the Church of which St. Paul was a part of. He did not go about making up his own interpretation apart from what the Church was teaching.
J
josie_L
Guest
Ok, Tanner let’s play your game, how many people were killed in the inquisition according to Foxe?
J
josie_L
Guest
**I never said that it was not God choosing (through the apostles present, i.e., the magisterium) however the office of Judas had to be filled by another, i.e., apostolic succession. It could not be left empty. Here are other citations that support or allude to apostolic succession: 1 Thessalonians 2: 6,7, Acts 14:23, Acts 20:28, 1 Corinthians 12:27-29, Ephesians 4:11, Ephesians 2:20, 1 Thessalonians 1:1-2:12, 1 Timothy 3:1-8, 1 Timothy 4: 13-14, 1 Timothy 5:17-22, 2 Timothy 2: 1-2. **
**And God decided that a person can only preach and teach if they are given apostolic authority by the Church of which St. Paul was a part of. He did not go about making up his own interpretation apart from what the Church was teaching. **
C
chris_molter
Guest
He set Peter as first among the Apostles. He ‘recognizes’ the Pope’s authority inasmuch as he is the SOURCE of the Pope’s authority.
BTW, you should capitalize proper names and titles. It’s “Pope”, not “pope”, whether you’re a Catholic, a Muslim, or a Jack Chick-style Protestant.
As for where Scripture tells us, it’s quite clear that Peter had primacy over the other 11. Fortunately, I’m not left to rely on Scripture alone (along with Pastor Billy Bob’s private interpretations), since I have Holy Tradition to rely on as well.
C
Contarini
Guest
Not only Catholic historians. According to this article by Patrick Collinson, it was the common opinion in the 19th and early 20th centuries that Foxe was not to be trusted. My advisor, David Steinmetz, is a Methodist, and he said in his short biography of John Hooper (in Reformers in the Wings) that Fox is always to be taken with a grain of salt (though that’s a fairly moderate statement, of course). Collinson, however, argues that Foxe was in fact the greatest historian of the sixteenth century! He apparently has an article that goes into the question of Foxe’s veracity in more detail (see footnote 39 in the article to which I’ve linked). I’m not deeply familiar with the scholarly debate on Foxe, but I have received the general impression that he’s been somewhat rehabilitated in recent years. Partly I think this is due to the postmodern awareness of how biased *all *scholarship is. An author with an obvious and blatant bias, like Foxe, no longer seems to be doing something radically different from history.
So I wouldn’t agree that Foxe has been totally “debunked,” but I certainly wouldn’t rely on him uncritically (or on any other source!). In short, as usual, my mentor Prof. Steinmetz is right!
Edwin
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