Luther was right

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Five percent of American Christians overall (8% of all Protestants and 2% of Catholics) tithe, according to a 2008 study of giving by the Barna Group, in Ventura, Calif. Protestants gave their church an average of $1,705 per household and Catholics gave $984, while those in non-Christian faiths gave an average $905, Barna found.

Near those non-Christian faiths…yikes.
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Must be that old Protestant work ethic.👍 Plus, you all save a lot on wine, dancing and movies. 😉

Plus you all have to pay those Pastor’s salaries and for those big-screens and all. My Pastor makes less than a grand a month. What about yours?
 
rskempf said:
A stopped clock is right twice a day.
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I was thinking the same thing… 🙂 But to be fair, Luther was right about a lot, except where his beliefs contradicted the teachings of the Catholic Church on doctrines and morals. As a Catholic I have great respect for Luther’s attempt to reform the corruption he saw in the Church of his day. Where I think he went awry was in attempting to dispose of the doctrines that he believed gave rise to some of the errors. That effort of reform by throwing the baby out with the bath water was much more detrimental that I believe he ever thought it would be. I think Luther must be very upset about the fractured nature of the Church today.

Peace,
Robert
 
Hisalone said:
Which has more authority the pope or scripture?
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You completely alluded his question. If the Catholic Church is not the Church that Christ established, then which one holds all the correct doctrines?
 
Tanner9188 said:
Why do Catholics have the least amount of US tithing of all denominations?
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Our priest had a good friendship with one of the local Baptist ministers.

He said they used to joke that Baptists tithe but don’t go to church. Catholics go to church, but don’t tithe.
 
Robert_in_SD said:
I was thinking the same thing… 🙂 But to be fair, Luther was right about a lot, except where his beliefs contradicted the teachings of the Catholic Church on doctrines and morals. As a Catholic I have great respect for Luther’s attempt to reform the corruption he saw in the Church of his day. Where I think he went awry was in attempting to dispose of the doctrines that he believed gave rise to some of the errors. That effort of reform by throwing the baby out with the bath water was much more detrimental that I believe he ever thought it would be. I think Luther must be very upset about the fractured nature of the Church today.

Peace,
Robert
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Rober in SD, I have noticed this in some of your other posts, and I think I commented on one before. This can be a very emotional topic and things can easily get carried away. However, comments like your shows levelheadedness and charity. While I don’t have anything to add directly to the discussion, I wanted say a public thank you for your post.
 
What are you saying Luthern was right about, can you explain a few things , and please no copy & paste

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura itself is a doctrine which developed over time. The notion of Sola Scriptura as a foundation for the faith simply did not exist prior to the Protestant Reformation because it was devised by Martin Luther in the early 1500’s. This is significant because the notion that doctrines can develop over time is typically rejected by those who base their faith on Sola Scriptura. But Sola Scriptura is itself a developed doctrine.
I,ll be waiting for your answer,Peace
 
josie_L said:
Yes because he and I believe Christ is our Lord and Saviour (second person of the Holy Trinity) who died on a cross, resurrected and was assumed into Heaven body and soul. Oh and by the way, he left a (singular) Church that would be the pillar and foundation of truth. God bless.
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**ekklēsia = church
a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
  1. an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
  2. the assembly of the Israelites
  3. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
  4. in a Christian sense
    a) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
    b) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus
    Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and
    manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order’s
    sake
    c) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united
    into one body
    d) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
    e) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven**
Note: the word “churches” is used 34 times in the NT; it is the exact same Greek term used for church and can be singular or plural, which I think that may mean it is an indefinite pronoun in English grammar; someone can probably verify this.
 
Bill_Pick said:
What are you saying Luthern was right about, can you explain a few things , and please no copy & paste

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura itself is a doctrine which developed over time. The notion of Sola Scriptura as a foundation for the faith simply did not exist prior to the Protestant Reformation because it was devised by Martin Luther in the early 1500’s. This is significant because the notion that doctrines can develop over time is typically rejected by those who base their faith on Sola Scriptura. But Sola Scriptura is itself a developed doctrine.
I,ll be waiting for your answer,Peace
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Bill; something that was always in Scripture, but was not “formulated” (lack of better term) until Luther came to the revelation, is not “developed over time”. Maryology would be an example of something developed over time because it was never in Scripture. Sola Sriptura was taught by the apostles through the OT writings, the epistles and oral teaching during the lives of the apostles. They did not use the term just as the word catholic or universal was never a term, but the church was and is universal in the sense that it covers the entire globe of God’s elect.
 
Contarini said:
What are these truths, in your opinion?

Do you believe that human beings have free will?

If you do, then according to Luther you are basically on the side of the “Papists.”

Edwin
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Sola’s Sola’s Sola’s

**We have free will to sin; we don’t have free will to come to God on our own as Scripture teaches or God said. However; we do exercise free will in the “deeds we do”. There is a great paradox concerning free-will that we cannot fully understand. Do you believe the doctrine of “election” is taught in Scripture? If so; how does that effect free-will? See what I mean; it is difficult to get your mind around because God says each person is responsible for rejecting HIm; yet He chooses who will come to Him. My head is already hurting trying to wrap my finite mind around it.

For your last question, click the link and see the picture; its worth a thousand words.
sacred-destinations.com/germany/wittenberg-lutherhaus-photos/slides/xti_8868cp.htm**
 
mark_a said:
The more relevant question is: Who is given authority to interpret scripture?
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**"1 Corinthians 2 :Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden {wisdom} which God predestined before the ages to our glory;…For to us God revealed {them} through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God…Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual {thoughts} with spiritual {words.} But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised…But we have the mind of Christ."

John 14 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things,

John 15 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, {that is} the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me.”

John 16 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment…”

I do not want to overwhelm you because Scripture has a lot more to say about the work of the Holy Spirit, which is a believers resident Truth teacher. He uses diligent study of the Scripture to lead, such as the Bereans. He uses faithful pastors and teachers who hold firm to the Truth of Scripture. He uses books and a host of other methods to enlighten the believer, which increases their wisdom, understanding and love for the Trinity.

Friend(s); if you believe that an institution must interpret Scripture for you; then you prove yourselves useless because you are too lazy to study and understand what the word of Lord is and in essence you deny the gospel of Christ through your own laziness. If you trust in God, then you must trust that He will keep His promises and lead you, Himself, to all truth concerning the Trinity and the message of salvation. If you trust in an institution to do this for you; then IMO you prove yourselves as “natural persons” and cannot understand because the love of the Father is not in you.**
 
Tanner9188 said:
**Why do Catholics have the least amount of US tithing of all denominations?

Tracking only money given to churches, synagogues and mosques, apart from other causes:
• Giving USA, a non-profit foundation that studies philanthropy in the United States, in its 2008 report found 33.4% of estimated total giving, $103.32 billion, went to houses of worship and denominational organizations in 2007.

• Five percent of American Christians overall (8% of all Protestants and 2% of Catholics) tithe**, according to a 2008 study of giving by the Barna Group, in Ventura, Calif. Protestants gave their church an average of $1,705 per household and Catholics gave $984, while those in non-Christian faiths gave an average $905, Barna found.

Near those non-Christian faiths…yikes.

None of it; Protestants or Catholics is very good; the total of 8% Protestants & 2% Catholic that tithe. Of course tithing was for Israel’s theocratic society.

“Now this {I say,} he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one {must do} just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”
“For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God…for the liberality of your contribution to them and to all,”
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Tanner9188 said:
**ekklēsia = church
a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
  1. an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
  2. the assembly of the Israelites
  3. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
  4. in a Christian sense
    a) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
    b) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus
    Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and
    manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order’s
    sake
    c) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united
    into one body
    d) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
    e) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven**
Note: the word “churches” is used 34 times in the NT; it is the exact same Greek term used for church and can be singular or plural, which I think that may mean it is an indefinite pronoun in English grammar; someone can probably verify this.
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Both of these lack a citation without it they are useless words.
 
Convert66 said:
Must be that old Protestant work ethic.👍 Plus, you all save a lot on wine, dancing and movies. 😉

Plus you all have to pay those Pastor’s salaries and for those big-screens and all. My Pastor makes less than a grand a month. What about yours?

You must put it into perspective; he may get a $1000.00/mo, but is his health care, housing and retirement also taken care of? How much is all that free wine and food worth. Then there are those who do the “five finger grab”.

The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”

Perhaps you are not treating them as the Scripture speaks about? Certainly, what is mentioned above is not a vow of poverty; that spiritual poverty comes with denying them marriage and a normal family life; a burden we do not put on our pastors. I realize that know the Church expectations going into the deal, but what a burden to put onto people.

Are pastor is paid well for a part-time pastor, we honor him. Our particular church gives over a 1/3 away to missionaries and other charities.
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Hisalone said:
Unless Luther had a benefactor He would have been murdered like those that went before him. His crime? To believe the scriptures.
And to believe they had more authority than the pope.
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His crime treason against Jesus Christ.
 
adrift said:
Both of these lack a citation without it they are useless words.
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**If you will reread carefully; you will see the citation; GivingUSA.org is one of a few organization that track philanthropic giving within the US.

The definition of church is common to anyone who has access to a Greek lexicon.**
 
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