Lutheran and Anglican Prayer beads....thoughts?

[Juliebug108]

But ultimately, isn’t non-intercessory Marian devotion really a Marian hint?

I’m not sure I understand your question…can you clarify what you mean?

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[mark_a]

I’m not sure I understand your question…can you clarify what you mean?

Peace and blessings,
Julie

Isn’t one really hoping for help, although not asking aloud for it, by repeating “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of the womb”?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m still trying to get over the fact that a group of Catholics, on and on, here at CAF kept trying to convince me that praying to saints is more efficacious than praying straight to Christ.

 

[GKC]

huh?

Think “motley”.

GKC

 

[Juliebug108]

Isn’t one really hoping for help, although not asking aloud for it, by repeating “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of the womb”?

Hmm…I’ve never really thought of it in those terms before to be honest. For me, it’s really just paying respect to the Blessed Mother. It’s really just a time when I’m thanking Her for giving birth to our Lord. However, when I’m praying the Rosary that way, I often ask God to help me to become more like Mary in her humility and service to Him…but still, I’m asking God.

Interesting thought though.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[JoshuaNY]

Hi Joshua,
I wonder, if we talked to synod leaders about the term “mediator”, do you not think they would accept the term in a broader sense? Such as when in the Prayer of the Church we list our intercessory prayers for those loved ones and members who are sick, or in need of prayer, could it not be said that we are in a way “mediating” with Christ for those in need of prayer. Also, as we Lutherans certainly believe that the Blessed Virgin and all the saints pray constantly for the Church Militant even without our request for said prayers, are they not in a manner “mediating”? Finally, when my wife and I took our children to be baptized, were we, in a sense, “mediating”?

Certainly, Lutherans as a rule do not pray for saintly intercession (as I said, they do it anyway), but we can pray that God listen to the prayers of the saints for our sake.

Jon

Oh ok, I got ya. I guess my understanding was a bit off.
Joshua

 

[ClamDigger]

Isn’t one really hoping for help, although not asking aloud for it, by repeating “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of the womb”?

I don’t think so. When I pray “Tota Pulchra Es” to Mary, I do it to give her praise and honor, not to somehow “coerce” her into interceding for me.

 

[ClamDigger]

I’m still trying to get over the fact that a group of Catholics, on and on, here at CAF kept trying to convince me that praying to saints is more efficacious than praying straight to Christ.

“The prayer of a just man availeth much.” --James 5.16

If the prayer of a just man on earth avails much, what of the prayer of the Mother of God? Praying to the saints and our Blessed Mother for their intercession is very beneficial. There is nothing wrong with going directly to Christ, but there is also nothing wrong with asking the extremely beneficial prayers of the Blessed Mother and the saints.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I could cherry-pick just as easily umpteen passages from Scripture that tell us to pray to the Lord Himself “Come to me all you who are heavy-laden…” isn’t “come to righteous saints who have found salvation through me when you are heavy-laden and ask them to pray to you to me because they are holier than you and I’ll listen to them over you” I just have a preference for direct prayer to the Lord. But alas the jury’s still out and I’m open-minded… Sometimes I feel like the “prayer of a just man availeth much” is a bit of a cop-out when we look at it through the eyes of saintly intercession. Instead of trying to become righteous ourselves and make our OWN prayers to the Lord more meaningful and sincere through meditating on our motivations, our feelings, and our sinful actions, I’ll just pray to a saint to intercede for me since I’m so sinful. Catholicism, unlike Calvinism, teaches that there is GOOD in human beings and while we are conscupiscent, we are made in God’s image and prone to wanting to please him. We are not “wretches” like Amazing Grace tells us. And yet seeing ourselves as wretches who are better off asking someone else to pray FOR us to the Lord, that seems to acknowledge the wretchedness and a need to subcontract out our work to another union… Like I said, I’m not insulting the practice, just still trying to figure out what I believe about all this. Heck, some days (make that plenty of days) I wonder if I can even stay Catholic…

“The prayer of a just man availeth much.” --James 5.16

If the prayer of a just man on earth avails much, what of the prayer of the Mother of God? Praying to the saints and our Blessed Mother for their intercession is very beneficial. There is nothing wrong with going directly to Christ, but there is also nothing wrong with asking the extremely beneficial prayers of the Blessed Mother and the saints.

 

[ClamDigger]

I could cherry-pick just as easily umpteen passages from Scripture that tell us to pray to the Lord Himself

I didn’t say you can’t go directly to the Lord. However, there is nothing wrong with asking the prayer of the Holy Mother either, as her prayer is of more avail than our own prayers because she has never offended and betrayed him by sinning as we have. Her relationship with the Lord is better than ours because it has never been damaged by sin. Therefore, when we ask Mary’s intercession in our request, our prayer is supported by both ourselves and by the Blessed Virgin.

“Come to me all you who are heavy-laden…” isn’t “come to righteous saints who have found salvation through me when you are heavy-laden and ask them to pray to you to me because they are holier than you and I’ll listen to them over you”

Well of course he will hear our prayers. However, the prayer of a just man still does avail much. Who is more just than the sinless Mother of God? Whose prayer will have more strength: a sinner’s or Mary Immaculate’s?

I just have a preference for direct prayer to the Lord. But alas the jury’s still out and I’m open-minded…

Good for you! I’m not telling you you must pray for the Blessed Mother’s intercession. I am merely stating that asking her intercession is not contrary to Christ’s teaching.
I, personally, enjoy speaking with Mary and asking her intercession. I am closer to her, more comfortable with her, and love her more than any of my friends or family on earth.

 

[mark_a]

I don’t think so. When I pray “Tota Pulchra Es”

I don’t know what that means.

to Mary, I do it to give her praise and honor, not to somehow “coerce” her into interceding for me.

I’ll take your word for that.

 

[mark_a]

Hmm…I’ve never really thought of it in those terms before to be honest. For me, it’s really just paying respect to the Blessed Mother. It’s really just a time when I’m thanking Her for giving birth to our Lord. However, when I’m praying the Rosary that way, I often ask God to help me to become more like Mary in her humility and service to Him…but still, I’m asking God.

Thank you for the thoughtful, reasonable reply.

 

[ClamDigger]

I don’t know what that means.

The “Tota Pulchra Es” goes like this:
Thou art all beautiful, O Mary, and the stain of original sin is not in thee.
Thy clothing is white as the snow and thy face is brilliant as the sun.
Thou art all beautiful, O Mary, and the stain of original sin is not in thee.
Thou art the Joy of Israel; the Glory of Jerusalem. Thou art the honor of our people.
Thou art all beautiful, O Mary, and the stain of original sin is not in thee.
Amen.

I’ll take your word for that.

Okay…? I don’t see how you couldn’t “take my word for it” since it isn’t even an intercessory prayer. To come to any other conclusion would be utterly nonsensical…