Lutheran Body Says It Is Not Bigoted Toward Catholics

[Chrysotom]

Lutheran Body Says It Is Not Bigoted Toward Catholics
By Stephanie Samuel | Christian Post Reporter
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The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod’s president is speaking out as many question presidential candidate Michele Bachmann’s decision to leave the denomination. In his latest statement, he explains the church’s disagreement with the Roman Catholic papacy and its biblical teachings.

Photo: WELS
The Rev. Mark Schroeder is president of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod.

While WELS disagrees with the pope’s station in the church and Catholic teachings on salvation, it denies being bigoted toward Catholics. In fact, the WELS head holds that many Catholics are true believers.

The Rev. Mark G. Schroeder wrote in a commentary that he makes no apology for the church’s belief that the Roman Catholic papacy fits the biblical characteristics of the antichrist. Schroeder states that WELS draws its teachings solely from the scriptures.

“The papacy claim to speak with an authority – even infallibility – that was equal to or surpassing the Word of God itself,” he explains. “By doing so, it put itself in a position of being ‘anti’ or ‘in place of’ Christ.”

However, Schroeder says its denomination is not bigoted against Catholics.

christianpost.com/news/lutheran-body-says-it-is-not-bigoted-toward-catholics-52509/

 

[Chrysotom]

Why do material heretics insist on telling us what we believe?I love the qualifier “MANY”.RThose Catholics who do NOT embrace the totality of the Church’s teachings.This poor soul does not even comprehend what infallibility in context means.

 

[Gift_from_God]

Considering that Lutherans have no official human leadership (at least I don’t think so), I don’t think it’s right to say that they are bigoted

 

[TarragonRose]

All of the Lutherans I know, and I know many of them because I grew up in the Lutheran church, are very decent, hard-working, God-fearing people. Lutheran ministers are quite well educated, and I would be very surprised if Rev. Schroeder (who is the head of the Wisconsin Synod, not some “poor soul”) did not understand perfectly well what “infallibility” means in a Catholic context. And he’s actually right that “many” Catholics are saved, because “many” (hopefully) are–but not all.

 

[Chrysotom]

Wels is bigoted against the Church and identifies the Pope as the anti-Christ.Lutherans are not whole cloth-like the rest of heretical Protestantism they denominate from each other and NO dear,it is quite obvious that he does not have an inkling as to the true meaning of infallibility or that bumph would not have come from his mouth.

 

[Chrysotom]

Considering that Lutherans have no official human leadership (at least I don’t think so), I don’t think it’s right to say that they are bigoted

Read the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod Charter.If WE identified them or theirs as the anti-Christ they would be one hundred per cent justified in calling US bigots.

 

[Gift_from_God]

Read the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod Charter.If WE identified them or theirs as the anti-Christ they would be one hundred per cent justified in calling US bigots.

Yes, those particular people are bigots, but not all Lutherans feel the same

 

[Chrysotom]

All of the Lutherans I know, and I know many of them because I grew up in the Lutheran church, are very decent, hard-working, God-fearing people. Lutheran ministers are quite well educated, and I would be very surprised if Rev. Schroeder (who is the head of the Wisconsin Synod, not some “poor soul”) did not understand perfectly well what “infallibility” means in a Catholic context. And he’s actually right that “many” Catholics are saved, because “many” (hopefully) are–but not all.

NO ONE is saved UNTIL they are in heaven or purgatory.To ascribe the certainty of salvation is a sin of Presumption and St Paul advises us to persevere to the end and to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.Assurance of Salvation is the antithesis of Catholic doctrine-the HOPE of Salvation which we must COOPERATE with works-(see James) is Catholicism in its essence.

 

[Chrysotom]

Yes, those particular people are bigots, but not all Lutherans feel the same

If people are members of the WELS Synod and they subscribe to the OFFICIAL and IN WRITING assertion that my Pope is the anti-Christ then yes they are de facto practical bigots.Mrs Bachman disassociated herself from that eclaisial body for the reason of that OFFICIAL bigotry.Kudos to her.

 

[Chrysotom]

Yes, those particular people are bigots, but not all Lutherans feel the same

Not ALL Lutherans belong to WELS.There are divisions between most Protestant mainline and evangelical or fundamentalist eclaisial bodies,ergo one has 38,000+(and rising DAILY) denominated Protestant groups vs. One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and the schismatic Orthodox Church.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Wels is bigoted against the Church and identifies the Pope as the anti-Christ.Lutherans are not whole cloth-like the rest of heretical Protestantism they denominate from each other and NO dear,it is quite obvious that he does not have an inkling as to the true meaning of infallibility or that bumph would not have come from his mouth.

Obviously he doesnt accept the fact that he is in a heretical religion declared by the CC. He has no authority to declare anything against the CC. if he could just realize this, he would save himself from all the embarassment.

 

[Chrysotom]

Obviously he doesnt accept the fact that he is in a heretical religion declared by the CC. He has no authority to declare anything against the CC. if he could just realize this, he would save himself from all the embarassment.

Bingo.

 

[Bran_Stark]

If people are members of the WELS Synod and they subscribe to the OFFICIAL and IN WRITING assertion that my Pope is the anti-Christ then yes they are de facto practical bigots.Mrs Bachman disassociated herself from that eclaisial body for the reason of that OFFICIAL bigotry.Kudos to her.

I think it’s kinda silly for Catholics to complain about this. First of all, an academic theological position devoid of any real-world consequences is not “bigotry”. Lutherans aren’t hurt by Catholic insistance that they are a mere “ecclesial community”, and neither should Catholics be hurt by Reformation-era polemics.

Now obviously Lutherans aren’t big fans of the Pope, otherwise they’d be Catholics. There’s nothing new or surprising here, just a strong affirmation of the general Protestant position.

And the types of Christians who forswear their traditional anti-Catholic language also tend to be the types of Christians who forswear their traditional moral beliefs - beliefs they share with Rome. So be careful what you wish for. It might be better to believe strongly, though misguidedly, than to morph into a lukewarm faith believing in nothing in particular at all.

 

[Chrysotom]

I think it’s kinda silly for Catholics to complain about this. First of all, an academic theological position devoid of any real-world consequences is not “bigotry”. Lutherans aren’t hurt by Catholic insistance that they are a mere “ecclesial community”, and neither should Catholics be hurt by Reformation-era polemics.

Now obviously Lutherans aren’t big fans of the Pope, otherwise they’d be Catholics. There’s nothing new or surprising here, just a strong affirmation of the general Protestant position.

And the types of Christians who forswear their traditional anti-Catholic language also tend to be the types of Christians who forswear their traditional moral beliefs - beliefs they share with Rome. So be careful what you wish for. It might be better to believe strongly, though misguidedly, than to morph into a lukewarm faith believing in nothing in particular at all.

"Lutherans aren’t hurt by Catholic insistance that they are a mere “ecclesial community”, and neither should Catholics be hurt by Reformation-era polemics. "

Huge difference between the two.Ecclaisial Community is a TAD more benign than ANTI-Christ.Apples and brickbats my friend.The equivalency you are stretching for simply is not there.Reformation or Deformation polemics belong in that era.

“… types of Christians who forswear their traditional MORAL beliefs - beliefs they share with Rome.”…uuh…you’d better rethink that one friend.

 

[Bran_Stark]

“… types of Christians who forswear their traditional MORAL beliefs - beliefs they share with Rome.”…uuh…you’d better rethink that one friend.

Huh? I’m just pointing out that the Wisconsin Lutherans are against homosexuality, abortion, female clergy, etc. Unlike certain other Lutheran bodies which may be more nicer toward Catholics on paper, but have abandoned orthodox Christian ethics.

 

[Chrysotom]

Huh? I’m just pointing out that the Wisconsin Lutherans are against homosexuality, abortion, female clergy, etc. Unlike certain other Lutheran bodies which may be more nicer toward Catholics on paper, but have abandoned orthodox Christian ethics.

Gee…that is a rather sweeping dismissal.Are you saying that Lutherans must be bigoted toward Catholicism in order to have “orthodox Christian ethics”?I’m not being deliberately obtuse but your reasoning or rather positing lacks clarity and seems founded upon a rather shaky premise.It smacks of a certain je ne sais quois…Triumphalism…
In my view it is an illogical premise based a sweeping,personally prejudiced and incorrect proposition that forms the basis of a logical syllogism.

A faith cannot establish Christian bona fides upon prejudiced,bigoted and intemperate Doctrinal Statements and expect to be taken seriously or at the very least claim misunderstanding or excuse it as Reformational linguistic excess.At least the Seventh Day Adventists make no apologies concerning their distorted and skewed perception of the Church-in fact their Faith would be meaningless without the Catholic Boogeyman.

The following Doctrinal Statement from the WELS website says it all-

"STATEMENT ON THE ANTICHRIST
Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope 57:

Therefore, even though the bishop of Rome had the primacy by divine right, yet since he defends godless services and doctrine conflicting with the Gospel, obedience is not due him; yea, it is necessary to resist him as Antichrist. The errors of the Pope are manifest and not trifling.

III. The passage (2 Th 2:1-12) promises that God will reveal the “man of lawlessness” and states the tokens, or marks, by means of which God will reveal him to the eyes of faith.

Among these marks are:

1. He “sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God” (2 Th 2:4). He is a religious power demanding religious allegiance, usurping authority in the Church and tyrannizing Christian consciences. Cf. Smalcald Articles II, IV, 10-14.
2. He is an embodiment of Satanic power. This is manifested:

a. in the fact that he appears as the one who “will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God” (2 Th 2:4). He is God’s Adversary;

b. and in the fact that his opposition to God is an opposition of disguise and deceit. He opposes God by usurping the place and name of God (2 Th 2:4). The Satanic appears, characteristically, in religious form: the “coming” of Antichrist is pitted against the “coming” of Christ, his signs and lying wonders against the miracles of Christ, faith in his lie against faith in the truth of Christ (2 Th 2:10-11).

IV. Therefore on the basis of a renewed study of the pertinent Scriptures we reaffirm the statement of the Lutheran Confessions, that “the Pope is the very Antichrist” (cf. Section II), especially since he anathematizes the doctrine of the justification by faith alone and sets himself up as the infallible head of the Church.

We thereby affirm that we identify this “Antichrist” with the Papacy as it is known to us today, which shall, as 2 Thessalonians 2:8 states, continue to the end of time, whatever form or guise it may take. This neither means nor implies a blanket condemnation of all members of the Roman Catholic Church, for despite all the errors taught in that church the Word of God is still heard there, and that Word is an effectual Word. Isa 55:10, 11; cf. Apology XXIV, 98, cited above under II.

We make this confession in the confidence of faith. The Antichrist cannot deceive us if we remain under the revelation given us in the Apostolic word (2 Th 2:13-17), for in God’s gracious governance of history the Antichrist can deceive only those who “refused to love the truth” (2 Th 2:10-12)."

I repeat:Kudos to Mrs.Bachman.

 

[Bran_Stark]

Gee…that is a rather sweeping dismissal.Are you saying that Lutherans must be bigoted toward Catholicism in order to have “orthodox Christian ethics”?

Um of course not! Certainly the ideal (from a Catholic perspective) is for them to be both Catholic-friendly and teaching traditional morality. But if you must have only one, I think it’s better to have the second.

On my part, I not be very happy if the Catholic Church renounced its claim to be the One True Church - even though as a good Protestant I don’t believe that claim - if the price of such renunciation was that the Catholic Church would also start ordaining women and so on.

 

[Chrysotom]

" But if you MUST have only one, I think it’s better to have the second."

Bran I have no doubt as to your sincerity and I CAN understand the logic of your conclusion,however you don’t have to “have” only one.That Doctrinal Statement is odious and should be repudiated.Feeneyism in any form is a blight on Christ’s Face in this world.

To have the Servant of the Servants of God, Holy Father personified as an Anti-Christ is one of the worst possible insults that a Catholic can suffer and is a horrible impediment to ecumenism.That prejudicial slander contributed to one of the worst blights of anti-Catholic prejudice ever visited upon a nation-Know Nothingism;the after effects of which are still evident in Protestant fundamentalism unfortunately.

God Bless Mrs.Bachman…

 

[JaMc]

" But if you MUST have only one, I think it’s better to have the second."

Bran I have no doubt as to your sincerity and I CAN understand the logic of your conclusion,however you don’t have to “have” only one.That Doctrinal Statement is odious and should be repudiated.Feeneyism in any form is a blight on Christ’s Face in this world.

To have the Servant of the Servants of God, Holy Father personified as an Anti-Christ is one of the worst possible insults that a Catholic can suffer and is a horrible impediment to ecumenism.That prejudicial slander contributed to one of the worst blights of anti-Catholic prejudice ever visited upon a nation-Know Nothingism;the after effects of which are still evident in Protestant fundamentalism unfortunately.

God Bless Mrs.Bachman…

Before you start heaping the praise on Michelle Bachmann, I believe she is now attending a Baptist church, which his hardly known for its historical friendliness toward Catholics. While Luther’s rhetoric was over-the-top, the poor treatment of Catholics in the “bible belt” is a lot more recent than the 30 Years War or Bismarck’s Kulturkampf.

 

[Chrysotom]

Before you start heaping the praise on Michelle Bachmann, I believe she is now attending a Baptist church, which his hardly known for its historical friendliness toward Catholics. While Luther’s rhetoric was over-the-top, the poor treatment of Catholics in the “bible belt” is a lot more recent than the 30 Years War or Bismarck’s Kulturkampf.

Which one of a myriad of Baptist Churches?The one that denominated from the other last week?Mrs Bachmann said she loves Catholics and recognizes us as fellow Christians.She left an eclaisial body that has bigotry written into it’s constitution.She is adamantly and relentlessly pro-life unlike the Pelosis,Kerrys and Bidens who park their Catholicism by the door.

Just as President Barack Obama is not responsible for the views of Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Rep. Bachmann must be judged on the basis of her own record.At least she publicly and quite vocally distanced herself from the anti-Catholic bigotry of WELS.Give me a devout Protestant President over some pathetic CINO any day.

God Bless Mrs.Bachmann AND Mrs.Palin AND Mr.Santorum.