Actually, one of the Scandinavian Lutheran bodies did retain an Apostolic Succession after the Reformation – the Swedes, I believe. But, like the Anglicans, I imagine that things would be a bit problematic!
I’ve heard this called the heresy of individualism.
I think the LCMS was one of the North American Lutheran bodies that did not sign the JDDJ.
The LCMS was founded in 1847. First synod president was Carl Ferdinand W. Walther. That was one of my “wait a moment, could the Catholic Church be right?” moments.
The LCMS wasn’t part of the JDDJ.
That was all ELCA, and if you want to see the LCMS response, it’s both in the FAQS (short response) and here (PDF file) (if the pdf link doesn’t work, go to lcms.org, hit search, and put in JDDJ. justclp.pdf is the file). Funny that the LCMS has more in common with the Catholic Church than ELCA does, yet ELCA signed the JDDJ. However, the LCMS participated in the round XI of talks. lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=9186
I’d laugh, but it hurts too much. It’s a horrible feeling not feeling one way or another. My mom was at a funeral mass a couple weeks ago and proceeded to tell me that she could never be a Catholic because she can’t stand the horrible songs they use instead of hymns. Imagine what fun I had trying to explain that the Catholic Church has many of the same problems we do in the synodHaha!
and that not everything is as it appears.As far as I know there are FIVE SOLAS, not three:
We on our part also retain many ceremonies and traditions (such as the liturgy of the Mass and various canticles, festivals, and the like) which serve to preserve order in the church. (Augsburg Confession XXVI:40 [German])
Been away for a while.Indeed He did, but I don’t think He established the LCMS.
Sola Scriptura is just plain dumb. Read this article. As far as Fides and Gratia, didn’t we straighten that out in the JDDJ?
Haha!
You have a liturgy… but not a Mass. The Mass is a sacrifice… Lutherans don’t believe the Eucharist to be a sacrifice. In some cases I even enjoy the LCMS service more than the Catholic Mass, depending on the parish. My ex-girlfriend used to be LCMS (now Catholic), so I do know something about the LCMS.
The point of using Latin in the liturgy was so that we would have a universal (Catholic) church. I have attended a Tridentine Latin Mass, and a Novus Ordo Latin Mass. The scriptures and the homilies are in the vernacular, and people were trained in their faith in the vernacular. I don’t really think that was such a huge problem as a lot of protestants today make it out to be. At Luther’s time, there was even 18 different Bibles in German. He was not the first to bring the faith to the people in the vernacular.The Lutheran Chuch was founded on the pricipals of having a church that spoke to the needs of the people. Using the language of the people…not Latin, that few people could understand, let alone read. The Liturgy is based on the Mass. The idea spread throughout Europe, and then as the people moved to the New World, it came with them. The Catholic Church also moved, but slower, and eventually had to come to grips with the fact that people wanted and needed the Mass in the vernacular of their country. Good thing Luther came along.
This seems to be another instance where the same definition has failed to attach itself to the same title. Both Lutherans and Catholics believe in the Sacrifice of the Mass. The argument was always more in the area of what constitutes a Sacrifice or what is the definition of a Sacrifice. When both sides sit down and tell their side of the story the Lutherans and Catholics are not much different. But unfortunately labels are confusing…You have a liturgy… but not a Mass. The Mass is a sacrifice… Lutherans don’t believe the Eucharist to be a sacrifice. In some cases I even enjoy the LCMS service more than the Catholic Mass, depending on the parish. My ex-girlfriend used to be LCMS (now Catholic), so I do know something about the LCMS.
Ex-girlfriend, not my ex-wife. But I to tend to agree with you on that point, however at the parish that I was at most of the people were pretty welcoming and didn’t try and belittle me for being a Catholic.
Sorry I have been meaning to update my profile for a while now… I am Greek Orthodox. I was looking into Lutheranism for a while but I disagreed with their view of an invisible church, forensic justification, and Sola Scriptura – amongst other things…
:clapping: And it depends on what church one is at. At my grandparents’ church, the pastor would agree with this and even calls the church service Mass. They have a tabernacle on the alter. (The catholics nearby say if you want to see what the Mass used to be like, go to the Lutheran church.) At my church, just a few miles away, the pastors might agree with this, but one will never hear them refer to it as Mass. We’re getting closer and closer to church Prussian Union style. (Both LCMS churches, BTW.)
Stereotype. There are some of the most anti-catholic people in the LCMS, but what about Jesus First, DayStar, and RIM? They are a majority now. It was proven at the convention last year. They are for ecumenism.
TinaK said::clapping: And it depends on what church one is at. At my grandparents’ church, the pastor would agree with this and even calls the church service Mass. They have a tabernacle on the alter. (The catholics nearby say if you want to see what the Mass used to be like, go to the Lutheran church.) At my church, just a few miles away, the pastors might agree with this, but one will never hear them refer to it as Mass. We’re getting closer and closer to church Prussian Union style. (Both LCMS churches, BTW.)
Stereotype. There are some of the most anti-catholic people in the LCMS, but what about Jesus First, DayStar, and RIM? They are a majority now. It was proven at the convention last year. They are for ecumenism.
However, I propose that there are even more in the LCMS who are anti-Lutheran. There are some pastors who left synod publicly crying they were run out because they were too Lutheran (LutherQuest), but these are not the ones I’m talking about. I’m talking about the ones who quietly left — those who were run out by their own members (I’ve seen that happen way too much), those who had to go out and work at gas stations because their District President will remove their names from the call list and make sure that they will never get a pastoral posistion again, and those who even received death threats. That’s why many don’t even want to hear the word “ecumenism.” How can ecumenical talks happen between synods and denominations when it can’t even happen in synod?
Gotta run and save my chickens.
The Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church are trying to hammer out another statement like the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification but in this instance it will be on the subject of Holy Orders.
No human can bridge this gap. But God can.
Now that is very interesting! The LCMS is involved in some talks, but this is the first I heard of that subject. Any documentation?