Lutheran Church Question

[JonNC]

Because we do not believe Lutheran Priests have valid Apostolic Succession and hence we do not believe they are Priest and as such can not consecrate Eucharist. Hence it would be bowing to false Eucharist in our view. This is also precisely why Catholics should not receive in any Church with invalid Apostolic Succession ever.

Yes. I know. That is the Catholic opinion. Catholics should believe that. We, of course, disagree.

I take it that Lutherans do not define “how” Eucharist becomes Body and Blood of our Lord, but are transubstantiation and consubstantiation really both rejected? Interesting.

Rejected in a formal sense, as in, these are not what we hold as doctrine.
The how is by the power of the Holy Spirit and the speaking of the verbs by the pastor.

 

[JonNC]

This explains why Catholics do not genuflect to a Lutheran tabernacle, not why Lutherans do not genuflect to a Lutheran tabernacle, which was, I believe, what the OP was asking.

Lutherans typically do not genuflect. It isn’t part of our culture. It isn’t wrong. There’s nothing wrong with it. I’ve seen it done on rare occasion by a pastor or laity, but It just isn’t the practice. Lutherans often bow, as I do. Lutherans usually kneel to receive the body and blood.

 

[Torolf]

Torolf:

Lutherans believe in the real presence but typically hold to consubstantiation instead of transubstantiation. Consubstantiation is the belief that the bread and wine coexist with the body and blood of Christ. There’s more to it but I’ll let someone more knowledgeable elaborate.

Lutherans usually reject the word “consubstantiation.” We call it Sacramental Union. Jesus is bodily present in the elements, but they don’t lose their “bread-ness” or “wine-ness.”

My apologies. I guess I got some bad information.

 

[TNMan]

It’s a common misconception. No problem!

 

[Padres1969]

Got a reminder of that this weekend at an Anglo-Catholic parish I’d never attended previously. I thought my parish was high church/Anglo-Catholic (because they are) but whew… this Rite 1 Anglo-Catholic parish I visited was just missing the Latin and it could have been mistaken for a Catholic Tridentine service to the unwitting. I’d never seen an Ad orientem Episcopal service with that, nor one with that much of the Tridentine flavor before. It was very interesting.

 

[GKMotley]

Except that it would be BCP 1928, you would find us just the same. Occasionally, under the previous rector, some Latin was included from time to time, which no longer occurs. Orientum all the way. And, of course, all male clergy/servers/lectors, etc.

 

[Neithan]

Lutherans’ “sacramental union” believes in some kind of Real Presence conjoined to the bread and wine when consumed by the communicant. The sacrament is not philosophically explained because Luther did not value natural reasoning as a means of exploring sacred mysteries.

If Catholics are tempted to think this is somehow a better understanding of the sacrament, well, it is no understanding at all (or even a valid sacrament).

 

[annad347]

Lutherans typically do not genuflect.

True, I make a man at the Lutheran church I go to smile every time I enter the church, kneel to the cross before entering the pew, then kneel to pray before sitting down.

He tells me about it every time mass ends. He’s not disrespectful about it, just says it makes him smile, he says he likes watching me do it, but never asks me about what I’m doing or why… go figure.

 

[JonNC]

Except that it would be BCP 1928, you would find us just the same. Occasionally, under the previous rector, some Latin was included from time to time, which no longer occurs. Orientum all the way. And, of course, all male clergy/servers/lectors, etc.

When the little APA mission was open, we had a guest priest who made reference to the Blessed Virgin a couple of times during worship.

 

[annad347]

do you remember what he said about her?

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Lutherans typically do not genuflect.

True, I make a man at the Lutheran church I go to smile every time I enter the church, kneel to the cross before entering the pew, then kneel to pray before sitting down.

He tells me about it every time mass ends. He’s not disrespectful about it, just says it makes him smile, he says he likes watching me do it, but never asks me about what I’m doing or why… go figure.

Older Lutheran parishes traditional have kneelers in the pews. My dad (RIP) was a pastor. He said we should stand to praise, kneel to pray, sit to listen.

 

[annad347]

They don’t kneel and stand the same as they do in the Catholic church, but they stand for the Confessions of Sin, The Lord’s Prayer and to hear the Holy Gospel and kneel for the Eucharist.

That’s the service in the main church… there’s another services that a little less formal. They don’t kneel or stand as much as they do in the more formal service and the music is much more like you’d hear on the radio then in church… but the message is the same.

I personally like the service in the more formal setting but enjoy the music in the less formal one.

 

[GKMotley]

I’m Anglican. The Bishop invariably refers to her as Blessed and Ever-Virgin Mother of God.

 

[Rasoleil]

The Lutheran Confessions refer to Mary as the ever-virgin Mother of God. There are Lutherans and even Lutheran pastors who know this and still teach that opposite. I know this personally.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

This explains why Catholics do not genuflect to a Lutheran tabernacle, not why Lutherans do not genuflect to a Lutheran tabernacle, which was, I believe, what the OP was asking.

Ooops then I have missed the point entirely. I thought OP was asking about first part.

Everything, I do is a personal choice… weather or not it goes against the Church in the end is up to God, Our Father in Heaven. don’t you think?

With all due respect if you do receive communion in Catholic Church then chances are you are expected to hold to teaching of the Church.

Rejected in a formal sense, as in, these are not what we hold as doctrine.

So transubstantiation is form of heresy to Lutheran Church?

 

[GKMotley]

Motley is not just a word for Anglicans, I know.

 

[JonNC]

do you remember what he said about her?

He asked for her intercession as I recall.
It was no surprise me since, as a server, I often heard such intercession.

 

[GKMotley]

The usual context when I hear it in Mass.

 

[JonNC]

The Lutheran Confessions refer to Mary as the ever-virgin Mother of God. There are Lutherans and even Lutheran pastors who know this and still teach that opposite. I know this personally.

Mother of God is doctrinal. No Lutheran pastor should deny this.
Ever Virgin is not Considered doctrinal, but can be believed, as I do.

 

[annad347]

With all due respect if you do receive communion in Catholic Church then chances are you are expected to hold to teaching of the Church.

I do… respectfully… doesn’t mean I don’t have a mind of my own and the free will to do what I believe is God’s will especially when I pray for Him to lead me, so I may follow His will and not the will of my own. Hope that makes sense…