Lutheran Church Question

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JonNC said:
Heterodox, more likely. Clearly it would never be taught in a Lutheran setting.
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Thank you for explanation.
annad347 said:
doesn’t mean I don’t have a mind of my own and the free will to do what I believe is God’s will especially when I pray for Him to lead me, so I may follow His will and not the will of my own. Hope that makes sense…
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Interpreting God’s will for yourself alone tends to lead to replacing some parts of it by your own. I don’t want to derail the thread nor make a judgment, but simply charitably warn you about possibility that missinterpretation is happening.
 
Neithan said:
Lutherans’ “sacramental union” believes in some kind of Real Presence conjoined to the bread and wine when consumed by the communicant.
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Source. It certainly isn’t the confessions.
There is no joining or conjoining, no impanation of any type.
@Hodos expressed it well. We believe that the bread and wine, at consecration, ARE the body and blood of Christ.
Neithan said:
The sacrament is not philosophically explained because Luther did not value natural reasoning as a means of exploring sacred mysteries.
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Then neither did Christ, since He provided no philosophical or natural reasoning other than “this is my body”. And so that is what we believe. Not Luther’s words. Christ’s.
Neithan said:
If Catholics are tempted to think this is somehow a better understanding of the sacrament
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Catholics should be tempted to believe no such things. Catholics should believe what the Catholic Church teaches. Additionally, Catholics should accept the explanation of Lutherans for what Lutherans believe, not what Catholics might mistakenly believe.
 
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OrbisNonSufficit said:
Interpreting God’s will for yourself alone tends to lead to replacing some parts of it by your own. I don’t want to derail the thread nor make a judgment, but simply charitably warn you about possibility that misinterpretation is happening.
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So you’re are saying I should have someone else interpret the will of God for my life? How could he/she possible know God’s will for my life if that other person doesn’t know me? How would I even be able to find such a person, and when I do how would I know that other person is truly interpreting the will of God for me and not doing as you say I’m doing possibility that misinterpretation with his/her own will?

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying, I’m sorry… but it sounded like you said I should get someone else to help me understand God’s will for my life. But like I said, who else can interpret the will of God in my life other then my prayers to God to make His will known to me, so that I may live by His will and not the will of my own?

and I too am sorry if this took this thread off its original topic… but I do like the title of Lutheran Church Questions… this message board could use a specific thread for Lutheran Church Question or any other Lutheran questions (maybe)… especially since there are a few Lutheran’s present on this message board and out in the World Wide Web (wow I’m old) non-exist.
 
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But The Book of Concord in the Lutheran Confessions explicitly state the Mary’s virginity remained nevertheless " inviolate" after Christ’s birth. That has to make it doctrine, no? Look it up. It explicitly states that Mary remained ever-Vrigin, so it’s not a matter of debate.
 
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Mary’s perpetual virginity isn’t a subject of debate, as it is Catholic DOGMA.
 
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12 years of Sunday School, 4 years of conformation. Plus 8 years of day school.
 
Dhc8_Type said:
12 years of Sunday School, 4 years of conformation. Plus 8 years of day school.
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equals what?

I have a question… I know the Catholic bible has 7 more books then the King James Bible… does a Lutheran bible contain any books not in the KJV or the Catholic bible?
 
annad347 said:
Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying, I’m sorry… but it sounded like you said I should get someone else to help me understand God’s will for my life. But like I said, who else can interpret the will of God in my life other then my prayers to God to make His will known to me, so that I may live by His will and not the will of my own?
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Yes, pretty much. I am saying Church has authority to interpret God and His teachings according to Catholicism (which is one of religions listed in your profile), and at the same time we can be mistaken while interpreting God’s will for our life… but Church never errs and was promised infallibility through Holy Spirit.

Ignatius of Loyola, Catholic Saint, had visions but later found out that they are from Devil not God. Many Saints also thought God is leading them somewhere but it was actually God’s will to be somewhere else… and they were mistaken while leading great spiritual lives much better than I do, and very likely better than you do too… if those Saints, Doctors of the Church and Church Fathers, Apostles nor anyone knew exactly where God is leading them, how can you trust that you do?
 
This is more about trusting yourself than trusting God… remember that we are not infallible… if we were, then there would not be so many denominations and disagreements over theology or authority of Church.
 
JonNC said:
Source. It certainly isn’t the confessions.
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It’s from the Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration VII. Sections 83 and 84 state that the consecration itself does not suffice for the Real Presence because it does not fully obey Christ’s commandment at the Last Supper to eat and drink.
[83] However, this blessing, or the recitation of the words of institution of Christ alone does not make a sacrament if the entire action of the Supper, as it was instituted by Christ, is not observed (as when the consecrated bread is not distributed, received, and partaken of, but is enclosed, sacrificed, or carried about), but the command of Christ, This do (which embraces the entire action or administration in this Sacrament, [84] that in an assembly of Christians bread and wine are taken, consecrated, distributed, received, eaten, drunk, and the Lord’s death is shown forth at the same time) must be observed unseparated and inviolate, as also St. Paul places before our eyes the entire action of the breaking of bread or of distribution and reception, (1 Cor. 10:16).
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JonNC said:
Not Luther’s words. Christ’s.
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You believe Luther’s interpretation, no? We both believe in Christ, so how do we account for the difference in doctrine?
JonNC said:
Catholics should believe what the Catholic Church teaches. Additionally, Catholics should accept the explanation of Lutherans for what Lutherans believe, not what Catholics might mistakenly believe.
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There is a hint of relativism here. Your truth is your truth, and my truth is my truth? I disagree with the implication that we cannot argue against doctrines we think are erroneous. How do you debate with other Protestants who believe the Lord’s Supper is merely a symbol?

If @Hodos is describing what Lutherans currently believe then it seems you have moved closer to Catholic doctrine and I am glad about that. 🙂 I certainly do not want to discourage you.
 
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But that’s the very reason God is the only one I can trust.

If I don’t have faith in my prayers to God, how can I possible have faith in the church I attend?

I don’t know about those people you spoke about who thought they were following God’s will but found out that they were following the devil. Maybe they took the easy path, maybe they struggled with what they wanted to do and what God wanted them to do and choose what they felt better for them. Maybe they didn’t pray every step they took and moved they made. Maybe the doubted their ability to hear God’s will for their lives. I can’t compare myself to them because I don’t know their mind or their relationship with God. I only know mine, and my relationship with The Lord.

I struggled with my choices on churches… I still do sometimes, but when ever I have doubt I pray, when I have questions I ask, then pray… I pray for God to show me His will and not my own. And trust me, if I was going to follow my will I wouldn’t attend two services every Sunday, I wouldn’t work 12 to 16 hour shift to get Sunday’s off and I sure wouldn’t care which church I attend. I do so cause I believe God wants me too… for how long I don’t know but as long as I am free on Sunday I will attend a Catholic service and Lutheran service and be willing active members in both churches… weather one church teaches I should or shouldn’t. Its God’s will I follow not mine and definitely not anyone else.

I believe that… I have to believe that. I DO believe that. Without the faith I have in my prayers to God, through the power of the Holy Spirit with in me, I that I am doing God’s will and not my own, I have nothing, and there is no church that can help me with that… no matter how much authority they have in the church.

I can only place my faith, trust and love in the mercy, grace and love of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

I hope that makes sense.
 
annad347 said:
I have a question… I know the Catholic bible has 7 more books then the King James Bible… does a Lutheran bible contain any books not in the KJV or the Catholic bible?
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I must reframe this question. The KJV has 7 fewer books than the original bible, how many books are in a Lutheran bible.

The original bible is the Catholic bible, for 1500 years it was the only bible. All others came from the Catholic bible.
 
annad347 said:
If I don’t have faith in my prayers to God, how can I possible have faith in the church I attend?
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Do not have faith in YOUR prayers, have faith in God himself… that is precisely the problem there. Instead of trusting God you trust your interaction with God and you trust that you understand your interaction with God.

Once again though, I do not wish to derail the thread. I think we either understand each other now or we won’t.
 
JonNC said:
Ever Virgin is not Considered doctrinal, but can be believed, as I do.
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Ever-Virgin IS doctrinal and a dogma of the Catholic Faith as infallibly defined by the Council of the Lateran in 649 and pronounced an anathema on those who declared otherwise:

Canon 3. If anyone does not properly and truly confess in accord with the holy Fathers, that the holy Mother of God and ever Virgin and immaculate Mary in the earliest of the ages conceived of the Holy Spirit without seed, namely, God the Word Himself specifically and truly, who was born of God the Father before all ages, and that she incorruptibly bore [Him?], her virginity remaining inviolate even after His birth, let him be condemned.
 
JonNC is a Lutheran, replying in this thread to a question about Lutherans.
 
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