Lutheran Communion- Valid?

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Captain_America said:
The Lutheran communion is a reenactment, and it is not the Holy Eucharist. That’s what Catholics have. I won’t take Lutheran communion because I feel it would be disrespectful to my faith.
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As a Roman Catholic, you shouldn’t take Communion at a Lutheran altar and I as a Lutheran would not take Communion at a Roman Catholic altar. When one takes Communion, it predisposes that everyone is of the like mind in doctrine. It is said that Lutheran pulpits for Lutheran pastors only and Lutheran altars for Lutherans only.
 
hn160 said:
You were lucky Jon, we were ELCA also when we moved to California, we were looking for a church, we made the decision to leave the ELCA, the pastor of the LC-MS church that we attend would not allow to commune until we had five meetings with him as to our beliefs and how we were catechized. He wanted a letter from our former pastor as to our standing in our former church. Usually, he requires non LC-MS Christians to attend a eight week We Believe and Confess course and if you believe in the Lutheran Confessions and the teachings of the Missouri Synod you are allowed to commune.
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Yes, I suspect that to be practiced, as well. And that is exactly the intent of “close” communion, as opposed to “closed” communion. The local parish pastor has some power to decide.

Jon
 
Captain_America said:
The Lutheran communion is a reenactment, and it is not the Holy Eucharist. That’s what Catholics have. I won’t take Lutheran communion because I feel it would be disrespectful to my faith.
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And indeed it would be, and it would be disrespectful to ours, as well. All the more reason to work and pray for unity.

The reenactment term is curious. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger said:
I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord in a Lutheran Lord’s Supper
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Jon
 
I am a Lutheran and disagree with the position stated here. We are Christians FIRST and foremost. To insult your Lutheran relative by attending the service and then not fully participating is an insult to your relative. God is worthy of all praise and honor. It may come as a surprise to many here that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is present at Lutheran services to just as great an extent as in the Catholic service.
 
I disagree with the last post. It is not disrespectful to attend another church and not participate in communion if you are Catholic. According to our faith we can’t do that. No other church except the Orthodox has the same beliefs that Catholics do regarding the real presence in the Eucharist. When we take communion in the Catholic Church we are reaffirming our common belief in this presence. However, we are taught that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
grin1020 said:
I am a Lutheran and disagree with the position stated here. We are Christians FIRST and foremost. To insult your Lutheran relative by attending the service and then not fully participating is an insult to your relative. God is worthy of all praise and honor. It may come as a surprise to many here that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is present at Lutheran services to just as great an extent as in the Catholic service.
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Welcome to CAF. I would not, under the current state of division between Lutherans and Catholics, expect a Catholic to receive our Eucharist. This expectation would be one of requiring a Catholic, relative or not, to violate their beliefs. In the same way, I would not receive in a Catholic Church, out of respect not only for my own faith, but also of theirs. Simply put, they ask us, when we are guests, not to receive, and we should honor their request. we should also honor their faith enough to say, “you are welcome to our worship”.

The issue, at least for me, is not an issue of where Christ is present in His body and blood. As Lutherans we believe He is present in both Lutheran and Catholic Eucharists.

Jon
 
I wonder sometimes what one believes the Eucharist is, what the Church teaches or what Christ said it is and for Christians believers to receive in rememberance of him. I"m aware of all the different viewpoints on the Last Supper, but I have to say, Christ does with it as he does with it, the bread, wine, cracker or juice. I believe it falls back on the faith of the recipient. But one has to honor what their Church teaches I guess. I think taking it spiritually as we do in the Catholic faith can be just as profound as taking it literally. Ya know I also believe we can get together as a family and all take a bite of bread and drink a swallow of juice and remember what Christ did for us at Calvary and receive him. Heck I believe that my husband and I can sit down to eat and pray over our food and examine our self and take a bite of food and a swallow of juice and remember what he did for us and receive him. also I love you all, so please don’t beat up on me.😃
 
Luvtosew said:
I wonder sometimes what one believes the Eucharist is, what the Church teaches or what Christ said it is and for Christians believers to receive in rememberance of him. I"m aware of all the different viewpoints on the Last Supper, but I have to say, Christ does with it as he does with it, the bread, wine, cracker or juice. I believe it falls back on the faith of the recipient. But one has to honor what their Church teaches I guess. I think taking it spiritually as we do in the Catholic faith can be just as profound as taking it literally. Ya know I also believe we can get together as a family and all take a bite of bread and drink a swallow of juice and remember what Christ did for us at Calvary and receive him. Heck I believe that my husband and I can sit down to eat and pray over our food and examine our self and take a bite of food and a swallow of juice and remember what he did for us and receive him. also I love you all, so please don’t beat up on me.😃
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I’m not going to beat you up, Luv, but here’s my take.
Chrst tells us in no uncertain terms what we receive in remembrance of Him. We receive His body, and His blood of the new covenant, for the remission of sins. It is clearly stated in the Gospels and by St. Paul. He specifically used bread and wine, not crackers and juice. We not only receive His body and blood spiritually by faith, but also orally by mouth.
As Lutherans, we believe that those called and ordained are responsible for the sacramental act, not a husband or father at home. And there are significant reasons for this. It is vital that we be properly disposed to receive, having confessed and been absolved prior to receiving. A husband cannot do this. Now, we can at home pray and eat and know that Christ is with us, but that is not the Sacrament of the Altar.

Finally, the faith of the recipient is irrelevent in determining if it is truly His body and blood.

Jon
 
gcnuss said:
Crazzeto,

I have a problem with what I have bolded in your statement above. I understand Holy Communion to be our Lord’s gift of his body and blood to those who follow him. For any church body to claim that one must agree with every jot and tittle of doctrine in order to receive our Lord’s gift seems presumptuous at bestI wonder what our Lord would say if he were present (not simply in the Sacrament itself) when someone was refused the Sacrament because they were not in “full visible communion” with the church at which the Sacrament was offered even if they believed that they truly would be receiving his body and blood.
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To understand fully you would first have to understand the 4 marks of the Visible Church that Jesus established, The Catholic Church.

The Church is One means that Jesus came to establish one Church that teaches one set of doctrines which have been taught by the apostles from the beginning and which were taught by them by Jesus Himself. Although some members of the Catholic Church are in disagreement about these doctrines, the Church’s official teachers, meaning the pope and the bishops united with him, have never changed any doctrine. Eph. 5:23-32, Jude 3, Phil. 1:27, 2:2. He didn’t come to establish a bunch of different churches that believe in different doctrines.

The Church is Holy implies that Jesus makes the Church holy because He is holy, not that all of the members of the Catholic Church are always holy. The Church is holy in itself because it is the source of holiness. Some members are holy and some are not so holy. We have to remember we are all sinners to some degree and to some level and overcoming sinfulness is not possible without the grace of God working in us. Eph. 5:26, John 6:70 and Matt. 7:21-23.

The Church is**** Catholic**** means the Church is universal and is open to all people regardless of the color of your skin, the country you are from - All are welcome. Matt. 28:19-20, Gal. 3:28.

The Church is Apostolic because Jesus founded and established a Church that He appointed to the chosen 12 Apostles to be the first leaders and their successors its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops and since there has been an unbroken line of Catholoic bishops handing on what was taught from the beginning in oral Traditions and Sacred Scripture. 2 Tim 2:2.

Catholic Priests are called and chosen by God to share in Jesus’ ministry, His Priesthood. Exod. 19:6, 22, 1 Pet 2:9, Rom 15:15-16, 2 Tim 1:6-7. Jesus did not come to do away with the Priests in the Old Covenant where the line of priesthood was established in just one tribe, but to fulfill it in the New Covenant where all men from all nations if called and chosen by God to minister to all people of all nations.

So for ordinary bread and wine to be consecrated into the Real Presence of Jesus Christ, there needs to be a validated, Catholic Priest to perform such a miracle.
1 Cor. 11:27-29.

To be honest, I really believe that if any of the 12 Apostles or Jesus Himself walked into any Catholic Church in the middle of Mass, they would know exactly what was going on. The fullness of His Truth that is only found in the Catholic church.
Peace 2U
 
Finally, the faith of the recipient is irrelevent in determining if it is truly His body and blood.

I don’t agree with that sorry. If a person receives and just believes it a wafer, that is all it is in my opinion.

Paul said to examine oneself before eating and drinking , and to not take unworthy. Now only mortal sins according to the Catholic faith need to be aurically confessed and in Mass we say the Act of Contrition before hand. What type of confession do Lutherans use? and what happens before the Lords Supper?
 
Luvtosew said:
Finally, the faith of the recipient is irrelevent in determining if it is truly His body and blood.

I don’t agree with that sorry. If a person receives and just believes it a wafer, that is all it is in my opinion.

Paul said to examine oneself before eating and drinking , and to not take unworthy. Now only mortal sins according to the Catholic faith need to be aurically confessed and in Mass we say the Act of Contrition before hand. What type of confession do Lutherans use? and what happens before the Lords Supper?
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Let me start with the first. Catholics and Lutherans agree that the presence of Christ is received by both those who have faith and those who don’t when they receive. The first to the remission of sins, the second to their own condemnation as Paul tells us.

Lutherans practice both corporate and private confession, and while we generally don’t make the distinction of mortal and venial sins as Catholics do when it comes to confession/Absolution, we do believe it appropriate and proper to be absolved prior to receiving. Lutheran divine liturgy includes an order of confession/Holy Absolution, and private confession is available to all Lutherans.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Let me start with the first. Catholics and Lutherans agree that the presence of Christ is received by both those who have faith and those who don’t when they receive. The first to the remission of sins, the second to their own condemnation as Paul tells us.

Lutherans practice both corporate and private confession, and while we generally don’t make the distinction of mortal and venial sins as Catholics do when it comes to confession/Absolution, we do believe it appropriate and proper to be absolved prior to receiving. Lutheran divine liturgy includes an order of confession/Holy Absolution, and private confession is available to all Lutherans.

Jon
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Having been Lutheran for most of my life (MS as a child and ECLA as an adult) I would agree that the Lutheran church is closer to the Catholic church as to the real presence than the majority of Protestant churches. However, the Catholic Church believes in transubstantiation (the wine and bread are transformed into the body and blood of Jesus by God through the priest) and the Lutheran Church in consubtantiation (Jesus is present in, under and around the wine and bread). Catholics also never use substitutes for wine (ie juice as Lutherans do) and bread must be unleavened wheat not anything else. The last Lutheran church I attended had a choice of receiving gluten free wafers. I do not take wine at communion for personal reasons as do others I know, but in taking the bread I am still still receiving both the body and blood of Christ.

Also regarding the quote above, I know they say Lutherans can have private confession but I never knew anyone who actually did that and it would not be a sacrament if they did. It was never required or encouraged in the churches I attended. Catholics are required to go to confession (sacrament of penance) at least once a year to be in good standing and going much more often is encouraged. It is scary at first, but the feeling you get when it is over is just incredible, that is my experience. We are confessing to a priest, but Jesus is working through the priest when he forgives us our sins.
 
=newconvert56;9088327]Having been Lutheran for most of my life (MS as a child and ECLA as an adult) I would agree that the Lutheran church is closer to the Catholic church as to the real presence than the majority of Protestant churches. However, the Catholic Church believes in transubstantiation (the wine and bread are transformed into the body and blood of Jesus by God through the priest) and the Lutheran Church in consubtantiation (Jesus is present in, under and around the wine and bread). Catholics also never use substitutes for wine (ie juice as Lutherans do) and bread must be unleavened wheat not anything else. The last Lutheran church I attended had a choice of receiving gluten free wafers. I do not take wine at communion for personal reasons as do others I know, but in taking the bread I am still still receiving both the body and blood of Christ.
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Actually, Lutherans reject consubstantiation on the same metaphysical grounds as we do trnasubstantiation. We take Christ’s words literally, that the bread IS His body. Sacramental Union is not consubstantiation. Personally, if I had to choose between the two metaphysical expressions of the real presence, Transub makes more sense, in light of Christ’s own words. But He doesn’t say “becomes”, and He doesn’t say “is mixed with”. He says IS.
Also regarding the quote above, I know they say Lutherans can have private confession but I never knew anyone who actually did that and it would not be a sacrament if they did. It was never required or encouraged in the churches I attended. Catholics are required to go to confession (sacrament of penance) at least once a year to be in good standing and going much more often is encouraged. It is scary at first, but the feeling you get when it is over is just incredible, that is my experience. We are confessing to a priest, but Jesus is working through the priest when he forgives us our sins.
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The way we view confession/Absolution, and the necessity for private confession is at variance, this is true. Whether or not one confesses in private, or as part of corporate confession, the absolution provided by the pastor is valid.
Lutherans come of two views whether Holy Absolution is a sacrament, and it depends on how narrowly one defines sacrament. Many Lutherans view it as part of Baptism, while others such as me view it as a sacrament of its own.

Jon
 
Thanks Jon, I always enjoy reading your posts. Back in the late sixties I was taught in confirmation classes (MS) that we Lutherans believed in consubstantiation. I also recall discussing this as what we believed as an adult in the ELCA. Has that changed at some point that i’m not aware of? I’m just curious. As an adult I remember discussing the difference between that and transubstantiation in adult ed class at my ECLA church and I said about the Catholic belief “but that’s what Jesus said isn’t it?” I don’t recall anyone answering me and so began my journey back to the Catholic Church where I was baptized as an infant:)
 
newconvert56 said:
Thanks Jon, I always enjoy reading your posts. Back in the late sixties I was taught in confirmation classes (MS) that we Lutherans believed in consubstantiation. I also recall discussing this as what we believed as an adult in the ELCA. Has that changed at some point that i’m not aware of? I’m just curious. As an adult I remember discussing the difference between that and transubstantiation in adult ed class at my ECLA church and I said about the Catholic belief “but that’s what Jesus said isn’t it?” I don’t recall anyone answering me and so began my journey back to the Catholic Church where I was baptized as an infant:)
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What really hasn’t changed is poor catechesis. Consubstantiation is a very lazy way of trying to explain Lutheran belief, in my opinion. Folks look at “in, with, and under”, and just use the term consubstantiation. None of the Lutheran reformers believed it. It isn’t in the confessions, and in fact it would be quite inconsistent to, on the one hand, criticize Catholics for using metaphysics, then turn around and use it ourselves.

As for your journey back to the Catholic Church, I wish God’s blessings there for you, in word and sacrament.

Jon
 
I do remember our priest telling us in RCIA classes that Luther did not come up with consubtantiation, that must have come later.
 
Luvtosew said:
Paul said to examine oneself before eating and drinking , and to not take unworthy.

EXACTLY! Partaking in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist if 1. you do not believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and 2. if you are not a baptized Catholic, then sadly you are engaging in sacrilege whether you realize it or not.

Hope you can open the following links which will lead you to the Truth:

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/euchb2a.htm

therealpresence.org/eucharst/realpres/a12.html

Peace 2U2!
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peace2u2 said:
Luvtosew;9082306:
Paul said to examine oneself before eating and drinking , and to not take unworthy
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.

EXACTLY! Partaking in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist if 1. you do not believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and 2. if you are not a baptized Catholic, then sadly you are engaging in sacrilege whether you realize it or not.

Hope you can open the following links which will lead you to the Truth:

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/euchb2a.htm

therealpresence.org/eucharst/realpres/a12.html

Peace 2U2!

I believe in the real presence maybe not in the exact way you do, thank you I have read all the teaching on the Eucharist. I am a Catholic but I see no problem being in a Methodist or even Baptist Church with a friend or family member and taking part in their Holy Communion uless their Church has a closed communion, such as the Catholic Church does.
Peace to you.
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