Lutheran Communion- Valid?

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newconvert56 said:
Thanks Jon, I always enjoy reading your posts. Back in the late sixties I was taught in confirmation classes (MS) that we Lutherans believed in consubstantiation. I also recall discussing this as what we believed as an adult in the ELCA. Has that changed at some point that i’m not aware of? I’m just curious. As an adult I remember discussing the difference between that and transubstantiation in adult ed class at my ECLA church and I said about the Catholic belief “but that’s what Jesus said isn’t it?” I don’t recall anyone answering me and so began my journey back to the Catholic Church where I was baptized as an infant:)
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Any Lutheran pastor worth his salt will tell you that Lutherans do not believe in consubstantiation, they would tell you that it is a mystery on how it happens and that Lutherans take Christ at His Word when he said “This Is…”. Also from the book The Conservative Reformation and Its Theology by Charles Porterfield Krauth stated In the " Wittenberg Concord," (1536,) prepared and signed by Luther and the other great leaders in the Church, it is said: " We deny the doctrine of transubstantiation, as we do also deny that the body and blood of Christ are locally included in the bread."* In the "Formula of Concord,“f our confessors say : " We utterly reject and condemn the doctrine of a Capernaitish eating of the body of Christ, which after so many protestations on our part, is maliciously imputed to us; the manducation is not a thing of the senses or of reason, but supernatural, mysterious, and incomprehensible. The presence of Christ in the supper is not of a physical nature, nor earthly, nor Capernaitish, and yet it is most true.” It would not be difficult to produce ample testimony of the same kind from intelligent men of other communions.

Krauth, Charles P. (Charles Porterfield), 1823-1883. The conservative reformation and its theology : as represented in the Augsburg Confession, and in the history and literature of the Evangelical Lutheran Church. Philadelphia : J.B. Lippincott.
 
I’ve always wondered why Catholic’s do not consider Lutheran Eucharist valid. Apostolic succession ought not to have anything to do with this aspect of sacramental theology– the Fathers are pretty clear, especially Augustine: it is the power of Christ, not the minister. In other words, Protestant eucharist is not “invalid.” It’s not possible for it not to be Eucharist so long as the words of institution are there. The only part of the sacramental theology that could be really contested is the “effectiveness” of the Eucharist in Protestant Churches that teach the Real Presence. Whether or not an individual has been designated as a sacramental conduit does not ultimately matter in this argument, either. For example, any individual may administer baptism to another individual if the situation calls for it, and it is a valid baptism so long as the words of institution are used.

I’m sorry for reviving an older thread– I’ve just always thought it interesting how there are some fun systematic gaps between saying that Protestant Eucharist is “invalid” and the Church’s historical teaching on sacramentality. It would be great to get into more of a systematic approach to this topic going.
 
I’ll defer to some of the other experts on this website but I as a layman can not simple say the words of institution and turn the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. Why? For the same reason, I do not have the powers of ordination. Same holds true for my inability to marry people, hear confessions etc.
 
Porknpie said:
I’ll defer to some of the other experts on this website but I as a layman can not simple say the words of institution and turn the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. Why? For the same reason, I do not have the powers of ordination. Same holds true for my inability to marry people, hear confessions etc.
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You’re right. Neither can I, but as my pastor is called and ordained, he can.
Jon
 
The Sacrament of Holy Orders can only be administered from a Catholic Bishop to a Catholic Priest. A church must have true apostolic succession of Bishops for the sacrament to be conferred.

Do Lutherans believe that they have true Apostolic succession?

God bless.
 
=Porknpie;9346305]The Sacrament of Holy Orders can only be administered from a Catholic Bishop to a Catholic Priest. A church must have true apostolic succession of Bishops for the sacrament to be conferred.
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Even the Catholic church recognizes Orthodox and PNCC ordinations.
Do Lutherans believe that they have true Apostolic succession?
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Some do, and the confessions speak to the desirablility of succession. But, we also believe that, while desirable, is not necessary for validity. An example of this is the Cistercian abbots who practiced presbyter ordination in the 1400’s.

Jon
 
Thank you, Jharek. And it goes both ways. I know that the Catholic Church teaches that our orders are not valid, and every Catholic should and must acknowledge that, and i respect it. Lutherans also acknowledge the validity of Catholic orders.

the USCCB, in dialogue with Lutherans, published this statement.
nccbuscc.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

Jon
 
I just wanted to add one more thing about the issue of orders and AS: I do not believe that, if/when reconciliation is at hand between our communions, orders will be an issue that keeps us divided.

Jon
 
JonNC-

Thank you. Which Lutheran churches believe in having succession? Specifically, does the Missouri Synod believe so?

Thanks & God Bless
 
Porknpie said:
JonNC-

Thank you. Which Lutheran churches believe in having succession? Specifically, does the Missouri Synod believe so?

Thanks & God Bless
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You’re quite welcome.

The LCMS makes no claim, though we (obviously) believe our ordinations and sacraments are valid based on divine law.

As to other Lutheran bodies, when the ELCA came into full altar and pulpit communion with the Episcopal Church - Call to Common Mission - they had to work out the issue of AS with with them, as the Episcopal Church is Anglican and sees AS as necessary. Today, ELCA pastors are ordained using the Anglican lines, including the “Dutch touch”.

In Scandinavia, some Catholic bishops moved with the Lutheran national Church, and they have been ordaining in this way since the Reformation. There may be others.

Now, that’s not to say that Rome accepts these ordinations as valid, but the lines are traceable nonetheless.

Then there is the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church, which is seeking unity with Rome. My understanding is that their orders are considered valid, though not completely licit. I don’t know all the particulars, however.

Jon
 
Porknpie said:
The Sacrament of Holy Orders can only be administered from a Catholic Bishop to a Catholic Priest. A church must have true apostolic succession of Bishops for the sacrament to be conferred.

Do Lutherans believe that they have true Apostolic succession?

God bless.
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Some do, especially the Scandanavian Lutherans.

And it was fairly recently resored in ELCA after nearly 300 years of neglect.

But the LCMS has a mixed congregational/presbyterian polity, and seemingly are not interested in the Epscopate.
 
Hi,
rainalaska said:
Let me start by saying I am a convert from an Independent Baptist background. When I converted my parents were very upset and it cause major problems for a few years. Recently my parents have left the Baptist church and are now attending a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church. This is truly an answer to prayer because at least it is a step closer to the fullness of the Catholic faith. Now to the question. My Mom asked me to attend their Ash Weds. service with them. I went, and participated. I however did not partake of the Eucharist. It is my understanding that it is not valid and therefore I am not to partake. My Mother had a strange look on her face when she realized I was not following her to the front. How do I explain why I could not participate? I am not sure how to answer the question that I know is coming. I think they believe in the true presence but isn’t it not valid because of the lack of apostolic succession? Please help with my understanding of this…I still feel like a baby Catholic!:confused:
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Concerning the fullness of catholic faith it is often said that Luther retained what was truly catholic about the Roman Catholic church.
The LCMS practices close however not closed communion. The ELCA practices open communion and this position was fostered into Lutheranism by adopting the historical critical method of bible interpretation over the historical grammatical interpretation of Scripture.This former method once raised it’s ugly head in the MS known as the Seminex controversy. Those who rejected correction went on to become what we have in the ELCA today to include open communion. Many other confessional conservative Lutherans practice closed communion just as Catholics do.
Closed communion is a voice of like mindedness. In the case of the LCMS, they generally ask if you agree with a brief paragraph or two before you partake and it is also desirable that you speak with the pastor beforehand to see if it is indeed okay.
Also, the Roman Catholic church claims for itself to institute the Eucharist.
Lutherans simply deny that claim and rely on Christ and his words of institution for the sacrament. Other points of contrast are that Lutherans defer to Scripture and simply accord with what is found in Scripture, whereas Roman Catholics appeal to scholasticism and Aristotelian philosophy for their understanding beyond the written word for their doctrinal demands. The Eastern Orthodox too would reject as the Lutherans do, scholasticism and the theory of development of doctrine practiced by the Roman Catholic church.
And finally, we [Lutherans] believe the Lord is prepositionally present in the Lord’s supper; in, with & under. During that time we believe the elements still remain as elements and that we do not worship the elements. We believe the real presence is present during the time of the Lord’s table and we don’t maintain that the real presence continues to exists beyond the time of the sacrament other than the real presence that Roman Catholics deny in the elements of bread and wine.

I hope that helps, by his graces, his servant, Nic:)
 
Hi,
JonNC said:
You could answer her question by reminding her of the LCMS practice of “close communion”, which is quite similar to the Catholic practice, and for the same reasons. It is one of the great sadnesses of our division that Lutherans and Catholics cannot share the same altar and chalice. Pope Benedict mentioned that when he visited the Lutheran Church in Rome last year.
You were right not to commune at the Lutheran Church, out of respect for your communion and for ours. Pray for the day of unity.

As for validity of Lutheran Eucharist, that is the Catholic position based on our orders, which, of course, Lutherans disagree with.

Jon
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Lutherans base the validity of the Eucharist on the words of institution by Christ found in Scripture (imagine that:)) and not to the singular claim that Roman Catholics make for themselves in institution of the sacrament.
Thanks again, I hope that helps, by his graces, his servant, Nic:)
 
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