Lutheran: Conservative in Doctrine, progressive in practice

[Peter_J]

LC-MS Lutherans believe that there is only one holy order given in Holy Scripture, the “Office of the Holy Ministry”, which combines the office of bishop and presbyter. The parish pastor truly is ‘pope in his own parish’, for good or bad.

No offense, but it sounds to me like you have a very strange understanding of Catholicism (or Lutheranism, or both).

The Circuit Counselor, District President, and Synod President might be analogous to the Bishop, Archbishop, and Pope, but nothing more. Unlike true bishops, the Synod cannot excommunicate, legislate canon law, or teach with binding authority. In the LC-MS each congregational is functionally independent, with the Synod acting as a unifying organization for the sake of cooperation and to provide services that can’t be reasonably performed by a single parish. To make my statement about “pope in his own parish” in the context of this thread more clear, I mean that the pastor can change the worship of his parish as he sees fit, which I have seen occur again and again.

FWIW, this doesn’t convince me that “The parish pastor truly is ‘pope in his own parish’.” (Sorry for jumping on a moving bandwagon. I just found this thread this morning.)

I guess this may be another example of Orthodox really, really wanting to find all kinds of similarities between Rome and protestants.

 

[Peter_J]

This Lutheran sister is sad.

Not that this will cheer you up, but I’ll say it anyhow: we Catholics have our problems too.

 

[MaryT777]

Not that this will cheer you up, but I’ll say it anyhow: we Catholics have our problems too.

This most certainly is true.
Mary.

 

[dcointin]

No offense, but it sounds to me like you have a very strange understanding of Catholicism (or Lutheranism, or both).

FWIW, this doesn’t convince me that “The parish pastor truly is ‘pope in his own parish’.” (Sorry for jumping on a moving bandwagon. I just found this thread this morning.)

I guess this may be another example of Orthodox really, really wanting to find all kinds of similarities between Rome and protestants.

I attempted to clarify what I meant by that statement after that post as I was not attempting a perfect correlation between the papacy and the pastor, nor an exhaustive explanation of LC-MS polity. This is the last thing I’ll say in this thread to avoid causing more offense.

 

[steido01]

I attempted to clarify what I meant by that statement after that post as I was not attempting a perfect correlation between the papacy and the pastor, nor an exhaustive explanation of LC-MS polity. This is the last thing I’ll say in this thread to avoid causing more offense.

No worries, friend! No offense was taken.

It’s just important for us to be clear on these boards, as it’s a place that many people come to for information about other faiths.

Your brother in Christ,

 

[Peter_J]

… to avoid causing more offense.

No worries; I’m just glad you weren’t offended by my post.

 

[dcointin]

I would also like to add that I have attended some excellent services in Lutheran parishes that were every bit as good from a traditional standpoint as anglo-catholic Episcopal parishes. I will always have very fond memories in particular of services held at Concordia Theological Seminary for their symposiums!

 

[JonNC]

I attempted to clarify what I meant by that statement after that post as I was not attempting a perfect correlation between the papacy and the pastor, nor an exhaustive explanation of LC-MS polity. This is the last thing I’ll say in this thread to avoid causing more offense.

I can’t think of a post of yours that I thought offensive.

There’s lots of lurkers out there, though, so sometimes we need to clear things up a bit.

Jon

 

[pablope]

QUOTE=JonNC;11480393]

Conservative in Doctrine. Progressive in Practice.

Not necessarily. From Augsburg
Of Usages in the Church they teach that those ought to be observed which may be observed without sin, and which are profitable unto tranquillity and good order in the Church, as particular holy days, festivals, and the like.

2] Nevertheless, concerning such things men are admonished that consciences are not to be burdened, as though such observance was necessary to salvation.

The point being that traditions can vary from place to place. What is necessary, however, is what the Church is obligated to provide - word and sacrament. In our parish, the topic of contemporary worship pops upon occasion, and my comment is always, “so long as those things that make he mass the mass, other things can vary within reason. There must be invocation, confession/Holy Absolution, the liturgy of the word, and the liturgy of the sacrament.”

Quote:
Then I wondered, does these not contradict each other.

They certainly can be, if for example, the things I’ve mentioned are missing, or the music does not reflect doctrine (a problem with much of the contemporary Christian music - it doesn’t reflect Lutheran doctrine, not in the style, but in the words).

You know…just thinking of this a little bit…does it not follow actions also speak the same as words?

If your doctrine is conservative, then one’s actions should also follow…and if actions are progressive…then this could sow confusion…and progressive teaching or doctrine is not far from following…any thoughts?

 

[benjohnson]

If your doctrine is conservative, then one’s actions should also follow…and if actions are progressive…then this could sow confusion…and progressive teaching or doctrine is not far from following…any thoughts?

Somebody… whack me with a spoon if I go to far, but this is my opinion:

Lutherans sometimes are a bit staid and formal - and I think we mistakenly try to offset this by getting a bit campy and modern.

It’s then that the Devil gets a hold of us in small measure - we exchange the liturgy of God for the emotion of ourselves.

Please pray for us… and feel free to call us out in Christian love when our actions don’t match what God would have us do.

 

[Peter_J]

Somebody… whack me with a spoon if I go to far, but this is my opinion:

Lutherans sometimes are a bit staid and formal - and I think we mistakenly try to offset this by getting a bit campy and modern.

It’s then that the Devil gets a hold of us in small measure - we exchange the liturgy of God for the emotion of ourselves.

Makes sense. Mind if I whack your behind a few times anyhow, seeing as my spoon is all ready?

 

[MaryT777]

Makes sense. Mind if I whack your behind a few times anyhow, seeing as my spoon is all ready?

 

[JonNC]

You know…just thinking of this a little bit…does it not follow actions also speak the same as words?

If your doctrine is conservative, then one’s actions should also follow…and if actions are progressive…then this could sow confusion…and progressive teaching or doctrine is not far from following…any thoughts?

Depends on what you mean by “progressive”. But here’s what I think, understanding that, from my POV, the historic Lutheran liturgy and liturgical music is second to none and I can’t imagine why one wouldn’t use it:
IF - all the important parts of the mass are there - invocation, confession/Absolution, scripture readings, homily, creed, liturgy of the sacrament, benediction, and
IF - the music used reflects doctrine (ISTM that a good chunk of contemporary Christian protestant music doesn’t fit),
THEN, contemporary worship is not “progressive” in a doctrinal sense.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Depends on what you mean by “progressive”. But here’s what I think, understanding that, from my POV, the historic Lutheran liturgy and liturgical music is second to none and I can’t imagine why one wouldn’t use it:
IF - all the important parts of the mass are there - invocation, confession/Absolution, scripture readings, homily, creed, liturgy of the sacrament, benediction, and
IF - the music used reflects doctrine (ISTM that a good chunk of contemporary Christian protestant music doesn’t fit),
THEN, contemporary worship is not “progressive” in a doctrinal sense.

Jon

You make a good point. I have never attended a “praise band” Eucharist but I think most follow the outline of the Mass. St Peter’s Church [ELCA] in Manhattan has a Jazz Mass each Sunday afternoon. The St Thomas Mass in the Church of Finland uses modern dialect/ hymns, musical instruments and is well attended.

 

[hn160]

I have been a member of an LC-MS congregation for the past seven years before that a member of an ELCA congregation in eastern PA. The ELCA churches that I was a member of were all liturgical, no big screens but the emphases in the ELCA was social justice and that God was still talking. When I was looking for an LC-MS church, I was surprised at the differences in the various congregations in my area. Quite a few had so called blended services, while others were a mix of Lutheran in name only and Pentecostal services complete with stage and praise band and pastors without robes in church growth movement. I finally found one that was traditional and confessional. In our Circuit there are about six churches that are traditional.