Lutheran delegation given Communion in St. Peter's basilica [CC]

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A Lutheran delegation from Finland, which met with Pope Francis earlier this week, received Communion in St. Peter’s basilica, although the priests celebrating Mass knew that the …

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May the Body of Christ keep them safe for eternal life.

I don’t know what else our response can/should be, than to pray that the Eucharist gives them every grace imaginable.
 
I suppose if I were in that position, I would receive as well. I would not refuse our Lord’s gift of His Body and Blood.
 
If you read the article, the Lutherans really had to choice to receive or else risk causing a scene. Whoever administered Communion to them is in need of correction. If the Church disciplines of this were to change fine, but priests can not just make it up as they go along, and this applies more in St Peters than anywhere else because of the greater potential for scandal. Personally, I think if open Communion were to be practiced with groups that believe in the Real Presence that would be a good thing (though no reason for that to be only Lutherans). But until the decision is made, the status quo remains.
 
  1. Crossed arms is not a Catholic thing. It would not surprise me to learn that a priest in Rome had no idea why their arms were crossed. The Catholic rule of thumb is to say in the pew if you are not going to receive.
  2. while the priests may have known that Lutherans were there, did they know 100% who the Lutherans were as they walked up?
So let’s not drag out the pitch forks just yet.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Shouldn’t someone be in trouble over this?
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Peter_J said:
They received from Catholics priests, not Orthodox priests.
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IgnatianPhilo said:
So communion is open in the Catholic church?
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Even before seeing your reply, I was thinking that my comment may have been a little too glib.

So let me try to remedy that situation by saying: the fact that the priests are Catholic makes them more likely to be “in trouble” than if they were Anglican, but less likely to be in trouble than if they were Orthodox.

(And please rest assured that we Catholics definitely don’t practice open communion.)
 
phil19034 said:
  1. Crossed arms is not a Catholic thing. It would not surprise me to learn that a priest in Rome had no idea why their arms were crossed. The Catholic rule of thumb is to say in the pew if you are not going to receive.
  2. while the priests may have known that Lutherans were there, did they know 100% who the Lutherans were as they walked up?
So let’s not drag out the pitch forks just yet.
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I was thinking along the same lines. Since the “crossing the arms” thing isn’t really a proper Catholic practice outside the American Catholic churches that do it and suggest it anyway. The Lutherans made an error in going up as they did rather than sitting in the pews (and the previously mentioned exception that many American churches among others do welcoming the “crossing of the arms” crowd is likely to blame).

And the general rule if I’m not mistaken is that a priest will distribute communion to anyone who comes up. It’s not like they check your religion credentials before they hand you the host. They trust that you’re supposed to be in line to receive and that you know the Catholic rules of communion (they’re printed in the English missal for instance, I assume other countries/regions do the same). It’s on the congregant to not go up if they’re not supposed to, as I don’t being Episcopalian when I visit Catholic Churches, even though in theory there wouldn’t be anything stopping me from partaking in Catholic Communion. A mistake was made by the visiting Lutherans who went up, knowingly or unknowingly.
 
Peter_J said:
Even before seeing your reply, I was thinking that my comment may have been a little too glib.

So let me try to remedy that situation by saying: the fact that the priests are Catholic makes them more likely to be “in trouble” than if they were Anglican, but less likely to be in trouble than if they were Orthodox.

(And please rest assured that we Catholics definitely don’t practice open communion.)
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Ah I see, though I think you are mistaken on the amount of trouble an Orthodox Priest would be if they invited a Roman Catholic or Protestant to receive at the chalice. The Bishop would of course have to be notified so proper action could be taken since Orthodox are strictly closed communion.
 
phil19034 said:
  1. Crossed arms is not a Catholic thing. It would not surprise me to learn that a priest in Rome had no idea why their arms were crossed. The Catholic rule of thumb is to say in the pew if you are not going to receive.
  2. while the priests may have known that Lutherans were there, did they know 100% who the Lutherans were as they walked up?
So let’s not drag out the pitch forks just yet.
Click to expand...
Actually, crossed arms is a gesture in the United States that someone does not want to receive the Eucharist but instead wants to receive a blessing. However, that same gesture, the arms crossed, that Americans use to indicate they want only a blessing is a gesture used by Eastern Catholics when they approach Communion…so that already is confusing to a European.

A non-English account, however, said that the Finnish Lutherans used a sign which in Europe means one is approaching the minister of Communion for a blessing…placing one’s right hand on the left shoulder…a gesture I have never seen when I have been in the United States. Would most American priests recognise that gesture? It is as much an accepted gesture as what the Americans use. I will add that it is the gesture that the Lutherans have historically used when they have attended papal Masses in the last decades…but, again, the priest in the basilica may not have any occasion to be aware of that.

And, having said that, I do not know who the priest (or priests) were at the Mass. Priests, literally, from all over the world celebrate Mass at Saint Peter’s for congregations that are also from all over the world…either offering their own Mass on one of the many altars on both levels in the early morning or concelebrating during the day. If something happens that you don’t understand, there may be no mutual language to ask a question or understand a request.

Nowhere in the world will one see the variety or amount of ecclesiastical attire one sees in Rome Since they attended this Mass in connection with the papal audience, assuredly they were wearing clerical garb but you cannot thereby tell much in Rome. What in the United States is a clerical shirt worn by an Anglican/Episcopalian bishop is the same clerical shirt worn by some Catholic bishops from Africa and the Middle East.

One can be in Rome for years and still encounter something you had never seen before. I would not be at all surprised that the priest did not know either who they were or even what their gesture was meant to indicate. Not every priest celebrating Mass in the basilica will know who is on the list of papal audiences and those who might would not necessarily expect to see a dignitary being received by the Pope in their line for Communion. The priest did know one thing for certain: they were in the line for Communion.
 
Which priests and did they know? If deliberate, they should be censured and possibly consider early retirement. If accident due to not knowing the gesture, the MC or delegation’s Catholic representative needs a formal reprimand. Too many shinnanagins and accidents lately, I suspect at least some of the liberalist clergy assume the Pope is soft and perhaps even on their side. . It remains to be seen if either speculation is accurate.
 
phil19034 said:
  1. Crossed arms is not a Catholic thing. It would not surprise me to learn that a priest in Rome had no idea why their arms were crossed. The Catholic rule of thumb is to say in the pew if you are not going to receive.
    **
  2. while the priests may have known that Lutherans were there, did they know 100% who the Lutherans were as they walked up**?
So let’s not drag out the pitch forks just yet.
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The article does say that the bishops “was asked to greet those present on behalf of the Finnish Lutherans”, so I guess everyone knew who he was.

Pitchfork time?

😉
 
The Vatican should follow up on this. This is a serious scandal, since it could encourage open communion in Catholic parishes. Perhaps the priests didn’t realize what this gesture means–if so, the Vatican should release this information.
 
SyroMalankara said:
Which priests and did they know? If deliberate, they should be censured and possibly consider early retirement. If accident due to not knowing the gesture, the MC or delegation’s Catholic representative needs a formal reprimand. Too many shinnanagins and accidents lately, I suspect at least some of the liberalist clergy assume the Pope is soft and perhaps even on their side. . It remains to be seen if either speculation is accurate.
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What? I think that is an awful set of assumptions to just arrive at. And an even worse declaration to make. “Early retirement” indeed. What makes you think that, at this moment, they would have had a Catholic escorting them? One does not need an escort to the enter the basilica.

In any event, they followed the procedure in making a gesture that convention accepts but the priest may not have understood – the gestures are not universal. At that point, in a multilingual environment, the attempt to make an explanation in such a moment by anyone can cause very great disruption in a circumstance like Mass in Saint Peter’s.

Any priest who has been in a similar circumstance can well understand how such a thing can happen as this.

Greetings, in a circumstance like this, would have come at the end of Mass, in other words after Communion has been distributed and before the final blessing.
 
😦

And here I am making arrangements to meet with a priest B4 attending his parish Mass, an Anglican Solemn High Mass in the vernacular at a Roman Catholic-Anglican rite parish. I finally met with someone who knows the priest and knows me…

Why bother 🤷
 
Don_Ruggero said:
What? I think that is an awful set of assumptions to just arrive at. And an even worse declaration to make. “Early retirement” indeed. What makes you think that, at this moment, they would have had a Catholic escorting them? One does not need an escort to the enter the basilica.

**In any event, they followed the procedure in making a gesture that convention accepts but the priest may not have understood – the gestures are not universal. At that point, in a multilingual environment, the attempt to make an explanation in such a moment by anyone can cause very great disruption in a circumstance like Mass in Saint Peter’s. **

Any priest who has been in a similar circumstance can well understand how such a thing can happen as this.

Greetings, in a circumstance like this, would have come at the end of Mass, in other words after Communion has been distributed and before the final blessing.
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But isn’t it the Blood and Body of Christ? I respect the priest and do not partake if I am visiting a parish. I choose to not cause scandal. I guess the church has changed.
 
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