Lutheran delegation given Communion in St. Peter's basilica [CC]

[FollowChrist34]

The article does say that the bishops “was asked to greet those present on behalf of the Finnish Lutherans”, so I guess everyone knew who he was.

Pitchfork time?

Pitchfork time indeed. Being righteous is not always pretty. Gotta stay on your toes.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

But isn’t it the Blood and Body of Christ? I respect the priest and do not partake if I am visiting a parish. I choose to not cause scandal. I guess the church has changed.

You are free to remain in your place at Communion, certainly.

I have explained that those going forward, seeking a blessing, did nothing wrong. They used a gesture that indicated they were seeking a blessing. That is a legitimate option for them…one explicitly conceded by Pope John Paul II when Lutheran dignitaries attended his Mass years ago and subsequently. Those dignitaries then wanted to receive his individual blessing from him, at the Communion of his Mass, as an expression of the hope of that day when full communion will be restored. He was touched by this and willingly acceded to their request and blessed them individually as they came forward among the select others who received Holy Communion from him.

I have also explained the circumstances in which a priest may not recognise the gesture and simply proceeded to give them Communion.

 

[Reuben_J]

I was thinking along the same lines. Since the “crossing the arms” thing isn’t really a proper Catholic practice outside the American Catholic churches that do it and suggest it anyway. The Lutherans made an error in going up as they did rather than sitting in the pews (and the previously mentioned exception that many American churches among others do welcoming the “crossing of the arms” crowd is likely to blame).

And the general rule if I’m not mistaken is that a priest will distribute communion to anyone who comes up. It’s not like they check your religion credentials before they hand you the host. They trust that you’re supposed to be in line to receive and that you know the Catholic rules of communion (they’re printed in the English missal for instance, I assume other countries/regions do the same). It’s on the congregant to not go up if they’re not supposed to, as I don’t being Episcopalian when I visit Catholic Churches, even though in theory there wouldn’t be anything stopping me from partaking in Catholic Communion. A mistake was made by the visiting Lutherans who went up, knowingly or unknowingly.

I will give it the benefit of the doubt and agree with this. Rome is a very international place, more so the Vatican, and that include visiting priests. Can’t blame the visiting Lutherans either, in the potpourri of mixed nationalities in a strange place, one tends to make mistake or just follow the crowd. Think of when you’re travelling to different places. …

If it is intentional, especially on the part of the said celebrant, then that is sad indeed. I quote what the audience in that website wrote, which perhaps reflect the mind of many Catholics everywhere.

*“I am afraid that the Lutheran delegation was not so innocent. Why were they approaching in the first place, in any posture? And why did they accept Holy Communion? This is all a planned incursion to break down the practice of the Catholic Church. “

“It seems the Lutheran Delegation was more faithful to Catholic teaching than the Priests. Very sad.”

“I assume a gesture like this was approved at a higher level, and it baffles me. I want to “think with the Church” but I am confused and discouraged. Where is the pope going with all this?”
*

 

[FrDavid96]

What we need here is a universally recognized gesture which says “I am not presenting myself to receive Holy Communion.”

We already have such a gesture. We do not need anything new.

Do not come forward in the Communion procession.

Plain. Simple. Straightforward. Universal. No possibility of misunderstanding.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Why are my suggestions being responded to as beyond the pale? If it’s a mistake not by the priest, the delegation’s Catholic rep is at fault for not informing them and the main celebrants… its not a bunch of individuals just touring, a delegation implies prearranged individuals. If the priests in fact were informed and didn’t care, early retirement is too harsh? For sacrilege? What’s a better response to send a clear message to everyone?

You know what’s a clear message for non-Apostolic Christians not to receive, a message and/or a note before Mass and a reminder prior to Communion. If the language is a barrier, surely a board can state it, it’s clearly written that short skirts, beachwear, and loud conversations are discouraged in multiple languages. This seems much more important.

 

[Reuben_J]

But isn’t it the Blood and Body of Christ? I respect the priest and do not partake if I am visiting a parish. I choose to not cause scandal. I guess the church has changed.

There is definitely no new teaching by the Church on the exclusivity of the Holy Communion, at least, none that I have heard. An issue as big as this, surely if there is changes, it would be made known publicly to Catholics.

I can only think that the mistake was unintentional - nervous visiting priest (celebrant) and the visiting Lutherans who thought they were doing the right thing, with good respectful intention to get blessed at the Communion, but received it anyway when the priest gave them, in order not to cause a scene, or perhaps thinking the priest was right. Cannot blame non-Catholics to know exactly Catholic practices at any given day.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

What we need here is a universally recognized gesture which says “I am not presenting myself to receive Holy Communion.”

We already have such a gesture. We do not need anything new.

Do not come forward in the Communion procession.

Plain. Simple. Straightforward. Universal. No possibility of misunderstanding.

Well, that is fine for people within your own community. Not so much for people outside your community.

 

[JonNC]

Ho boy…

Got enough popcorn to share?
Jon

 

[Padres1969]

Well, that is fine for people within your own community. Not so much for people outside your community.

Don’t understand what’s so hard about sitting down and staying there. I’ve been given a dirty look or two and a sarcastic word or two as well when I don’t go up for communion visiting Catholic Churches (some seem to think the arms crossed thing is normal (as did I admittedly until I learned otherwise)). My old man who is nominally Catholic, if inactive, hasn’t gone up for the duration of my lifetime in part because he’s not had communion in that time, so he’s not in a state to do so. And he also has received comments questioning why he’s not going up when he remains seated.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Don’t understand what’s so hard about sitting down and staying there. I’ve been given a dirty look or two and a sarcastic word or two as well when I don’t go up for communion visiting Catholic Churches (some seem to think the arms crossed thing is normal (as did I admittedly until I learned otherwise)). My old man who is nominally Catholic, if inactive, hasn’t gone up for the duration of my lifetime in part because he’s not had communion in that time, so he’s not in a state to do so. And he also has received comments questioning why he’s not going up when he remains seated.

But if you are outside the community, you don’t know what is appropriate and what is not, especially in a place such as St Peter’s. One follows the person in front of you for the most part. I have seen many a people go up for communion in an event such as a wedding or funeral.

So there should be polite communication if you do not wish that to happen.

And if it does, I really don’t think the world is going to end. In fact, it might bring a few blessings with it.

 

[Reuben_J]

Don’t understand what’s so hard about sitting down and staying there. I’ve been given a dirty look or two and a sarcastic word or two as well when I don’t go up for communion visiting Catholic Churches (some seem to think the arms crossed thing is normal (as did I admittedly until I learned otherwise)). My old man who is nominally Catholic, if inactive, hasn’t gone up for the duration of my lifetime in part because he’s not had communion in that time, so he’s not in a state to do so. And he also has received comments questioning why he’s not going up when he remains seated.

How wicked people can be. Exactly, this is one of the reasons, perhaps a big reason, why many Catholics go up and receive Communion unworthily. I have not heard such comments though and the dirty look may be just my creative mind at work, but the truth is, many Catholics would go up very loosely for Communion, for dreading being left in the pews, anticipating what negative thought that people would have of them, like “what grave sin that he has committed?”

 

[Lormar]

I was taught, back in the Dark Ages presumably, that only a Catholic in the state of Sanctifying Grace could receive Holy Communion.

Yes, I know what’s written on paper and in Catholic books, but in practice, it’s another thing. It is no wonder I have no real trust left in the Church.

The following is taken from the article:

The Lutherans were members of an annual ecumenical delegation to Rome on the part of Catholics, Orthodox, and Lutherans to celebrate the feast day of St. Henry of Uppsala, who is credited with the evangelization of Finland in the 12th century.

After an audience with the pope, the delegation was present at a celebration of the Catholic mass. According to a Lutheran bishop who was present, at the time of communion the non-Catholics placed their right hands on their left shoulders, a traditional way of indicating that they were ineligible to receive the Eucharist. However, the celebrating priests insisted on giving them communion.

Lutheran bishop Samuel Salmi told Kotimaa 24 that “I myself accepted it [Holy Communion].” He added that “this was not a coincidence,” and nor was it a coincidence when last year the pope seemed to accept the notion of a Lutheran woman receiving communion with her Catholic husband.

 

[JonNC]

Why are my suggestions being responded to as beyond the pale? If it’s a mistake not by the priest, the delegation’s Catholic rep is at fault for not informing them and the main celebrants… its not a bunch of individuals just touring, a delegation implies prearranged individuals. If the priests in fact were informed and didn’t care, early retirement is too harsh? For sacrilege? What’s a better response to send a clear message to everyone?

You know what’s a clear message for non-Apostolic Christians not to receive, a message and/or a note before Mass and a reminder prior to Communion. If the language is a barrier, surely a board can state it, it’s clearly written that short skirts, beachwear, and loud conversations are discouraged in multiple languages. This seems much more important.

If it was a pre-arranged group of Lutherans, with a bishop, far more likely than not they knew the practice of closed communion, or close communion. Knowingly receiving is disrespectful …
…unless they were given permission.

Jon

 

[Lormar]

How wicked people can be. Exactly, this is one of the reasons, perhaps a big reason, why many Catholics go up and receive Communion unworthily. I have not heard such comments though and the dirty look may be just my creative mind at work, but the truth is, many Catholics would go up very loosely for Communion, for dreading being left in the pews, anticipating what negative thought that people would have of them, like “what grave sin that he has committed?”

What is so awful about not going up to receive Holy Communion? When I was growing up, most people wouldn’t think of receiving unless their souls (remember that archaic term?) were squeaky clean.

So, you don’t go up to receive. What is someone going to think? That you are a sinner? Oh, the horror.

 

[Reuben_J]

What is so awful about not going up to receive Holy Communion? When I was growing up, most people wouldn’t think of receiving unless their souls (remember that archaic term?) were squeaky clean.

So, you don’t go up to receive. What is someone going to think? That you are a sinner? Oh, the horror.

They (Catholics ) come in all kinds.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

From Ut Unum Sint and the memories of Pope Saint John Paul II

1. /…/

In this respect I would like to mention one demonstration dictated by fraternal charity and marked by deep clarity of faith which made a profound impression on me. I am speaking of the Eucharistic celebrations at which I presided in Finland and Sweden during my journey to the Scandinavian and Nordic countries. At Communion time, the Lutheran Bishops approached the celebrant. They wished, by means of an agreed gesture, to demonstrate their desire for that time when we, Catholics and Lutherans, will be able to share the same Eucharist, and they wished to receive the celebrant’s blessing. With love I blessed them. The same gesture, so rich in meaning, was repeated in Rome at the Mass at which I presided in Piazza Farnese, on the sixth centenary of the canonization of Saint Birgitta of Sweden, on 6 October 1991.

 

[Reuben_J]

If it was a pre-arranged group of Lutherans, with a bishop, far more likely than not they knew the practice of closed communion, or close communion. Knowingly receiving is disrespectful …
…unless they were given permission.

Jon

It seemed they came up just for the blessing. Then the priest gave them the hosts. And they recieved.

So, a few things could happen at that moment. Rough guess of course.

1. Did the priest think they came up for Communion as Catholics? That he did not understand their crossing their hands sign?
2. Did the Lutheran delegates think the priest was giving them Communion and that it was ok?

The other possibilities may not be very pleasant to know.

 

[Peter_J]

I will give it the benefit of the doubt and agree with this. Rome is a very international place, more so the Vatican, and that include visiting priests. Can’t blame the visiting Lutherans either, in the potpourri of mixed nationalities in a strange place, one tends to make mistake or just follow the crowd. Think of when you’re travelling to different places. …

If it is intentional, especially on the part of the said celebrant, then that is sad indeed.

I guess we would never know that, unless he tells us. But if that were the case, then the big question would be whether the circumstances were such that their own church’s sacraments were unavailable to them.

 

[Peter_J]

From Ut Unum Sint and the memories of Pope Saint John Paul II

1. /…/

In this respect I would like to mention one demonstration dictated by fraternal charity and marked by deep clarity of faith which made a profound impression on me. I am speaking of the Eucharistic celebrations at which I presided in Finland and Sweden during my journey to the Scandinavian and Nordic countries. At Communion time, the Lutheran Bishops approached the celebrant. They wished, by means of an agreed gesture, to demonstrate their desire for that time when we, Catholics and Lutherans, will be able to share the same Eucharist, and they wished to receive the celebrant’s blessing. With love I blessed them. The same gesture, so rich in meaning, was repeated in Rome at the Mass at which I presided in Piazza Farnese, on the sixth centenary of the canonization of Saint Birgitta of Sweden, on 6 October 1991.

I was thinking of that passage as well. Or, rather, I was remembering how in 2000 or so (I think I had recently read the encyclical) I mentioned that passage to a Catholic acquaintance of mine who very strongly opposed ecumenism. I’m not really sure what he thought of it but he made a comment about the Lutheran bishops “humbling themselves before the Pope”.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

WAT Da Heck , I’m very sure Lutherans don’t allow this , so there should be some disipline here.