Lutheran delegation given Communion in St. Peter's basilica [CC]

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That’s the strange thing for Christians such as I that see the direct teaching by Paul not to divide the Body of Christ, and it it is that Body, the Body of Christ as the gathering of believers that Paul warns not to ignore; For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

The Corinthians were splitting up into groups and segregating themselves from one another, failing to recognize the Body of Christ and treating each other deplorably. The rich split from the poor, eating all the food, and some poor brothers and sisters were actually becoming ill or starving to death because they had no food. The Passover was shared amongst all present, the Corinthian’s love feast turned into a drunken gluttonous affair. I hardly think that is comparable to Lutherans partaking in communion at the Vatican… I personally think this pope is quite aware of that.
 
Sure the are different thought from Protestants on the Holy Eucharist, transubstantiation and the exclusiveness of the Holy Communion. I can very well sympathize on them for wanting to receive Catholic Holy Communion even though they may have different belief in what Holy Communion entails. The Catholic teaching on this is very clear as explained that even the Pope himself (Pope Francis) cannot overrule that teaching when he said it was not for him to decide whether the Lutherans can receive Holy Communion in the Catholic celebration of the Eucharist. He can only hope that one day there is full unity and that we can be truly one.

As can be seen here from the response of Lutheran posters, they are very aware of the exclusiveness of the Holy Communion. Some of them also practice this exclusivity in their church, the reason why they thought that it is not proper to try to receive Holy Communion in another church stealthily.
 
Sure the are different thought from Protestants on the Holy Eucharist, transubstantiation and the exclusiveness of the Holy Communion. I can very well sympathize on them for wanting to receive Catholic Holy Communion even though they may have different belief in what Holy Communion entails. The Catholic teaching on this is very clear as explained that even the Pope himself (Pope Francis) cannot overrule that teaching when he said it was not for him to decide whether the Lutherans can receive Holy Communion in the Catholic celebration of the Eucharist. He can only hope that one day there is full unity and that we can be truly one.

As can be seen here from the response of Lutheran posters, they are very aware of the exclusiveness of the Holy Communion. Some of them also practice this exclusivity in their church, the reason why they thought that it is not proper to try to receive Holy Communion in another church stealthily.
I don’t know that exclusiveness is the correct term. What we look for in confessional Lutheranism is a communion of beliefs, a knowledge that the person kneeling next to you essentially believes what you believe, not just about the sacrament, but about doctrine in general.

I also do not believe that a non-Catholic seeks to receive the sacrament at a Catholic altar because he/she somehow thinks it’s better than his/her communion’s. From a Lutheran perspective, we have no doubt that the Catholic sacrament is the true and substantial body and blood of Christ. We have no doubt that the Supper received in a Lutheran parish is indeed His true and substantial body and blood, as well.

Jon
 
I don’t know that exclusiveness is the correct term. What we look for in confessional Lutheranism is a communion of beliefs, a knowledge that the person kneeling next to you essentially believes what you believe, not just about the sacrament, but about doctrine in general.

I also do not believe that a non-Catholic seeks to receive the sacrament at a Catholic altar because he/she somehow thinks it’s better than his/her communion’s. From a Lutheran perspective, we have no doubt that the Catholic sacrament is the true and substantial body and blood of Christ. We have no doubt that the Supper received in a Lutheran parish is indeed His true and substantial body and blood, as well.

Jon
Thanks Jon. I am sure I cannot speak for you accurately. I was just trying to summarize what you guys said with regards to this issue and it was by no means on the mark. :o

Still the issue here is the controversy of those Lutheran delegates having to receive or given rather, Holy Communion by the celebrant of the mass. Make no mistake about it, if I understand correctly, that there are other Protestants who seem to think that it is alright for them to receive the Holy Communion and that the Catholic priest should have given them. Again, that is my impression and I would be glad to be corrected. 🙂

I can only clarify by way of the Catholic teaching on this and hopefully our other Protestant friends understand this stance.
 
Thanks Jon. I am sure I cannot speak for you accurately. I was just trying to summarize what you guys said with regards to this issue and it was by no means on the mark. :o

Still the issue here is the controversy of those Lutheran delegates having to receive or given rather, Holy Communion by the celebrant of the mass. Make no mistake about it, if I understand correctly, that** there are other Protestants who seem to think that it is alright for them to receive the Holy Communion and that the Catholic priest should have given them.** Again, that is my impression and I would be glad to be corrected. 🙂

I can only clarify by way of the Catholic teaching on this and hopefully our other Protestant friends understand this stance.
On this there is no correction that I can imagine. Two points:
  1. I believe it the peak of arrogance to believe, assume, or insist that a Catholic priest (or a Lutheran pastor) is obliged to invite someone to the table if they are not members of that tradition. The Catholic Church asks that those who are not Catholic not receive. It is, therefore, common courtesy and an honoring of both the Catholic tradition and that of one’s own tradition to not receive. When one is a guest in someone else’s house, one follows the rules of the master of that house.
  2. We should all strive for the day when we can share this blessed sacrament at each other’s altars, but that joyous day must wait until we are in unity. It is then that the celebration will be complete.
Jon
 
I wonder if or when the Vatican will issue a statement about this?

I, for one, would like to hear a little more about this matter. Of course, to save face and not offend the visitors we may never hear another word of this and be left to discuss it among ourselves.
 
I wonder if or when the Vatican will issue a statement about this?

I, for one, would like to hear a little more about this matter. Of course, to save face and not offend the visitors we may never hear another word of this and be left to discuss it among ourselves.
Or you could just pass on, trusting those involved to have behaved properly.
 
I wonder if or when the Vatican will issue a statement about this?

I, for one, would like to hear a little more about this matter. Of course, to save face and not offend the visitors we may never hear another word of this and be left to discuss it among ourselves.
Or you could just pass on, trusting those involved to have behaved properly.
I’m afraid I can’t do that, given the circumstances involved. Thank you for your suggestion, though.
 
Again, a bit of confusion on my part being “on the outside” of all of this; this “Finnish Catholic spokesman” is an official spokesman for the RCC in an official capacity, meaning this is coming from the hierarchy of the RCC itself? If not, how much weight does his word carry? Wouldn’t we actually have to hear from the Pope, or a Vatican spokesperson to know what really happened?
 
Again, a bit of confusion on my part being “on the outside” of all of this; this “Finnish Catholic spokesman” is an official spokesman for the RCC in an official capacity, meaning this is coming from the hierarchy of the RCC itself? If not, how much weight does his word carry? Wouldn’t we actually have to hear from the Pope, or a Vatican spokesperson to know what really happened?
What I am taking away from all this is the Catholic Bishop is saying that the pope made a mistake. Clearly, not an “official” Vatican statement.

His word carries as much weight as any other Catholic Bishop, but I dare say that his boss (Pope Francis) may not be pleased with him for the criticism. As I said in an earlier post, I would love to hear an OFFICIAL statement from the Vatican on this matter.
 
spokesman for the RCC
Interesting you should say that, because the headline of the first article that I read called him “Catholic spokesman”. Reading the whole article made it clear that they meant spokesman for a diocese, but I decided not to post that link, because ISTM that people reading that headline might be misled (well, plus it was on a website I had never heard of). But come to think of it, I guess saying “Finnish Catholic spokesman” isn’t too much different.
 
What I am taking away from all this is the Catholic Bishop is saying that the pope made a mistake. Clearly, not an “official” Vatican statement.

His word carries as much weight as any other Catholic Bishop, but I dare say that his boss (Pope Francis) may not be pleased with him for the criticism. As I said in an earlier post, I would love to hear an OFFICIAL statement from the Vatican on this matter.
What do you mean the POPE made a mistake? The priest who gave Communion made a mistake in not recognising the gesture that the bishop wanted a blessing.
 
What do you mean the POPE made a mistake? The priest who gave Communion made a mistake in not recognising the gesture that the bishop wanted a blessing.
Some very strange comments in this thread, Father. Of course the odd assemblage of people here cannot be held to represent the laity at large, but I wonder if there is a gap in understanding between the leadership of the Church and those in the pew that needs to be addressed?
 
What as much that amazed me is how we are trying to keep this issue alive.:confused:
 
I have to say that this thread has been a real eye-opener for me. I have been frankly horrified by comments I have read in this thread.

I have read condemnations of those who approached the celebrant, as if their motives could not have been anything but bad when, in point of fact, they did not do anything wrong. They followed the procedure. They did not attempt to obtain Communion by stealth.

They went forward, seeking a blessing and used a gesture that indicated they wanted a blessing. I do not know which sign they used. In Europe, it is being reported that they used the gesture that means “I am not eligible for Communion”. I believe it more probable that this is the one that they used since they are Finnish.

The Americans are reporting that they used the gesture of crossed arms. If that is true, it is even more obscuring since there are Eastern Catholics who use that posture when receiving Communion, as I have had that happen to me. For that matter, I have had Catholics clutch both their hands over their heart as they extend their tongue for Communion. One has to try to discern, as best one can, what is intended.

As I have tried to indicate, this is something that happens in an instant. A person is presenting himself to the minister of Communion. This is not an occasion for a protracted interaction. When someone comes to me, I already have the Host in hand, as normally I am distributing one Host to each communicant. If they make a gesture to me that says, “I want a blessing,” I replace the host in the ciborium and give a blessing.

You see all sorts of things when you are distributing Communion in an international setting. People with folded hands, unfolded hands with their arms at their side, and all manner of postures and gestures. Bowing before receiving, genuflecting before receiving, kneeling to receive, nodding the head, a type of curtsy.

If the minister of Communion did not recognise the significance of the right hand resting on the left shoulder but saw it is a posture, he is going to be trying to give Communion to the person on the tongue in that circumstance. It is that simple. And so I cannot understand the mindset that the minister must have set out to do something wrong, which is what is repeatedly said here.

Their own ecclesial community’s sacraments could not be unavailable to them…this was a delegation of Lutheran bishops.

But I don’t presume it was the celebrant of the Mass that gave them Communion. I do assume it was one of the public Masses, during the day, in the basilica. Normally there are concelebrants but, if not, one of the priests on duty at the basilica will come out to help distribute Holy Communion.

Saint Peter’s does not work like any other church in the world. It is nothing to see bishops in line waiting to go to confession and clerics or Religious from all over the world stopping in to hear the Mass being said.

It is not logical that any cleric in the basilica, however they are dressed, are going to be presumed to be non-Catholics because it is simply a statistical anomaly. The default is that they are Catholic. The same is true for a cleric or Religious in a Communion line…one never presumes that they are there for only a blessing. It is certainly possible for it to happen, and obviously it does, but it is not remotely routine. In other words, one’s default position is that this is a Catholic cleric…not a non-Catholic cleric…and that a cleric is in a Communion line to receive Communion.

The norm in the Diocese of Rome is still communion on the tongue. If someone approached without their hands extended, the Host will be heading toward the mouth as the formula is pronounced. I can easily imagine the bishop’s mouth dropping open in surprise as the Host is headed for him…or opened his mouth to say something…and, voila, he has received Communion and the priest will, if anything, be surprised that the person is not moving quickly out of the way so he can give Communion to the next person in line.

Frankly, most times when people are trying to whisper to me at the distribution of Communion, it is to tell me there is someone who can’t come forward to receive Communion and asking me to go to them. At a Mass such as this, one is at the mercy of being able to understand the language being spoken to you. If you can’t, the only real option is to shake your head no, shrug your shoulders – indicating you can’t understand – and continue to distribute Communion.

The Lutherans of Scandinavia are warmly welcomed in Rome, and they know that they are; their ecclesiastics are cordially received. I am not surprised at all that they went into the basilica. The tomb of Queen Christina is in the crypt, right between the tombs of Pope John Paul I and Blessed Paul VI. I am not surprised that they chose to attend Mass there.

I would hope they feel at home in Saint Peter’s. Just as they make us feel at home when we visit them. Swedish Lutherans graciously receive Catholics at the Church at Vadstena, the pre-Reformation shrine of Saint Bridget of Sweden.

There is a very different sense in Europe than what seems to prevail in the United States, which is clearly perceivable in this thread.

As I said before…comments on this thread have said quite a lot to me.
As for our non-Catholic friends and even for some Catholics out there 😉 this informative post would have given you the inside picture of the administration of the Holy Communion during a mass.

Nobody, not even the Pope, even though he is the highest in the hierarchy, is allowed to give Holy Communion to non-Catholics (unless in a specified special circumstance).
 
Interesting you should say that, because the headline of the first article that I read called him “Catholic spokesman”. Reading the whole article made it clear that they meant spokesman for a diocese, but I decided not to post that link, because ISTM that people reading that headline might be misled (well, plus it was on a website I had never heard of). But come to think of it, I guess saying “Finnish Catholic spokesman” isn’t too much different.
I’m glad you posted it, it’s just interesting to me that one Bishop’s opinion was worthy of a news interview when he wasn’t anywhere in the decision making line. However, as you point out it is odd and confusing that the term “spokesman” was used.
 
I’m glad you posted it, it’s just interesting to me that one Bishop’s opinion was worthy of a news interview when he wasn’t anywhere in the decision making line. However, as you point out it is odd and confusing that the term “spokesman” was used.
Right. Marko Tervaportti *is *a spokesman, and he’s Catholic, but calling him a “Catholic spokesman” (or “Finnish Catholic spokesman”) seems likely to mislead people.
 
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