Lutheran Doctrines

[Matariel]

I would like to inquire of our dear Lutheran brothers in Christ, of their position and concenses on these topics of discussion:

Do Lutherans venerate saints to any degree, and what saints do they recognize?

Do they honour the Blessed Virgin to any degree?

Do they recognize her perpetual virginity?

Do Lutherans maintain Apostolic Succession as put forth by the Early Fathers of the Church? Do they have the orders of bishops, priests, and deacons?

How many Ecumenical Councils do they recognize?

Do they seek unity among Christians?

Do they consider Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics brothers in Christ?

 

[BlestOne]

I’m not Lutheran but my dh was…

I would like to inquire of our dear Lutheran brothers in Christ, of their position and concenses on these topics of discussion:

Do Lutherans venerate saints to any degree, and what saints do they recognize?Mostly they recognize the apostles… alot of Lutheran schools are named St John or St Paul from what i have seen.

Do they honour the Blessed Virgin to any degree?Different synods do… Martin Luther did.

Do they recognize her perpetual virginity?Same as above

Do Lutherans maintain Apostolic Succession as put forth by the Early Fathers of the Church? Do they have the orders of bishops, priests, and deacons?No, they do not have valid succession nor a valid priesthood

How many Ecumenical Councils do they recognize?Sorry don’t know this one

Do they seek unity among Christians?Yes

Do they consider Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics brothers on Christ?Yes

 

[TriuneUnity]

I would like to inquire of our dear Lutheran brothers in Christ, of their position and concenses on these topics of discussion:

Do Lutherans venerate saints to any degree, and what saints do they recognize?

We do not venerate saints. Our calendar of saint days is basically an abbreviated version of the Latin calendar. We also have feast days for saints from the Lutheran tradition (Martin Luther, Martin Chemnitz, etc.)

Do they honour the Blessed Virgin to any degree?

More so than most Protestants would. For example, feast days, naming churches after her. We also will use the title Mother of God and Blessed Virgin.

Do they recognize her perpetual virginity?

We neither deny or affirm her perpetual virginity as an article of faith.

Do Lutherans maintain Apostolic Succession as put forth by the Early Fathers of the Church? Do they have the orders of bishops, priests, and deacons?

Most do not. Many northern European churches adopted the same system as the Anglicans, but it is not official recognized by our Confessions of Faith. In the confessional view, apostolic succession is seen only inasmuch as the doctrine of the apostles is confirmed versus an application of laying on hands in holy orders.

How many Ecumenical Councils do they recognize?

Generally, the first six are seen as inerrant. Though along with the seventh ecumenical council, we do condemn iconoclasm.

Do they seek unity among Christians?

Yes; but never at the expense of doctrine. Of course, one of the major failings of the Lutheran churches in America is to forcefully address the culture and seek open dialogue with other denominations.

Do they consider Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics brothers in Christ?

Individuals, yes. We would consider all other churches to have truth mixed with error. Wherever the word of God is preached and the sacraments administered, there will be Christians.

 

[Matariel]

We do not venerate saints. Our calendar of saint days is basically an abbreviated version of the Latin calendar. We also have feast days for saints from the Lutheran tradition (Martin Luther, Martin Chemnitz, etc.)

Triune, just who I was looking for. This is interesting. So Lutherans don’t venerate saints, but have saint’s days? Besides the Lutheran saints, are your saints’ days all saints from the Bible?

More so than most Protestants would. For example, feast days, naming churches after her. We also will use the title Mother of God and Blessed Virgin.

I have to say, Lutherans seem to be the most level-headed and nice Protestants I know. At least they look at things evenly and don’t play language games with titles like “Mother of God”.

We neither deny or affirm her perpetual virginity as an article of faith.

Is it up to personal opinion? I know in my traditional Anglican Church, everyone generally believes it, but it is optional (called pious legend) just like Immaculate Conception, Assumption, etc.

Most do not. Many northern European churches adopted the same system as the Anglicans, but it is not official recognized by our Confessions of Faith. In the confessional view, apostolic succession is seen only inasmuch as the doctrine of the apostles is confirmed versus an application of laying on hands in holy orders.

Hm, I see. My Anglican church emphasizes that, although Apostolic Succession is highly important, doctrinal continuity is also extremely important. I totally agree.

Generally, the first six are seen as inerrant. Though along with the seventh ecumenical council, we do condemn iconoclasm.

I see. I remember visiting one beautiful Lutheran church, and there was a statue of Christ the Redeemer with outstretched arms as soon as you walk in the church. It was a nice church full of Christians who loved God.

Yes; but never at the expense of doctrine. Of course, one of the major failings of the Lutheran churches in America is to forcefully address the culture and seek open dialogue with other denominations.

Yes… sometimes ecumenism can be dangerous.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Triune, just who I was looking for. This is interesting. So Lutherans don’t venerate saints, but have saint’s days? Besides the Lutheran saints, are your saints’ days all saints from the Bible?

We use historical saints as well. Gregory the Great, Augustine, Ambrose, and Cyprian are examples. We also use Old Testament saints, which the Latin calendar does not.

I have to say, Lutherans seem to be the most level-headed and nice Protestants I know. At least they look at things evenly and don’t play language games with titles like “Mother of God”.

We try. We don’t succeed a lot of the time LOL. We try to stick with a scriptural application of it. Elizabeth calls Mary the mother of God, so that is a clear indication that we can, too. Aside from the Christological issues.

Is it up to personal opinion? I know in my traditional Anglican Church, everyone generally believes it, but it is optional (called pious legend) just like Immaculate Conception, Assumption, etc.

It is up to personal opinion. Scripture does not bind the conscience either way on those issues so neither can we. I happen to think she had no other children besides Christ (though I realize that doesn’t neccesarily mean she was Semper Virgo). Freedom of conscience in either direction has to be maintained here.

Hm, I see. My Anglican church emphasizes that, although Apostolic Succession is highly important, doctrinal continuity is also extremely important. I totally agree.

If a particular bishop or minister teaches falsely, all the laying on of hands will do no good. Nor does a laying on of hands ensure correct teaching.

I see. I remember visiting one beautiful Lutheran church, and there was a statue of Christ the Redeemer with outstretched arms as soon as you walk in the church. It was a nice church full of Christians who loved God.

Images are important to the Lutheran tradition as a continuity with the church catholic. They’ve always been used and are not forbidden by the NT.

Yes… sometimes ecumenism can be dangerous.

Just see the Pope kissing the Qu’ran thread for an example of that one lol.

 

[Matariel]

We use historical saints as well. Gregory the Great, Augustine, Ambrose, and Cyprian are examples. We also use Old Testament saints, which the Latin calendar does not.

Oh? I thought St. Elijah and Adam and Eve had there own feast day in the Latin Caledar?

It is up to personal opinion. Scripture does not bind the conscience either way on those issues so neither can we. I happen to think she had no other children besides Christ (though I realize that doesn’t neccesarily mean she was Semper Virgo). Freedom of conscience in either direction has to be maintained here.

What do most Lutherans of these “marian” issues?

If a particular bishop or minister teaches falsely, all the laying on of hands will do no good. Nor does a laying on of hands ensure correct teaching.

As much as I like you, Triune, I slightly disagree. While sacramental Ordination does not guarrantee doctrinal correctness and submission to the Church, it nevertheless conveys an indelible seal. This is why St. Paul warns Timothy to be careful who he ordains. (Note: When Anglicans and Catholics [as far as I know] say other churches’ orders aren’t ‘valid’, we are not saying that grace and Sacraments are not present in these churches; God is not limited by an Apostolic Succession, and can make any sacrament valid where true believers are present, although the Anglican and Catholic Churches say ‘invalid’ because they have no objective reason to believe it so, because we just don’t know.)

Images are important to the Lutheran tradition as a continuity with the church catholic. They’ve always been used and are not forbidden by the NT.

I’m glad they didn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Just see the Pope kissing the Qu’ran thread for an example of that one lol.

Really? I heard it was an Arabic Bible…

 

[TriuneUnity]

Oh? I thought St. Elijah and Adam and Eve had there own feast day in the Latin Caledar?

Not sure on this one…But we include, for example, Moses, Hannah, Joshua…I know saints like these are included in the Eastern calendars.

What do most Lutherans of these “marian” issues?

Many would disagree. Unfortunately, most of them probably don’t spend too much time thinking those issues through.

As much as I like you, Triune, I slightly disagree. While sacramental Ordination does not guarrantee doctrinal correctness and submission to the Church, it nevertheless conveys an indelible seal. This is why St. Paul warns Timothy to be careful who he ordains. (Note: When Anglicans and Catholics [as far as I know] say other churches’ orders aren’t ‘valid’, we are not saying that grace and Sacraments are not present in these churches; God is not limited by an Apostolic Succession, and can make any sacrament valid where true believers are present, although the Anglican and Catholic Churches say ‘invalid’ because they have no objective reason to believe it so, because we just don’t know.)

But I could equally make the argument that Paul exhorts Timothy to take care with who he ordains simply because there are many untaught and unstable men running around. It doesn’t mention anything about sacramental grace being conferred in succession, as Rome, the East, and Anglicans may maintain.

I’m glad they didn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Or in the case of the Baptists, taking the bathwater as far away from the baby as possible until they grow up LOL.

Really? I heard it was an Arabic Bible…

If you look at the photo, you can see the Arabic letters on the book for “Qu’ran.”

 

[churchcamefirst]

I still don’t get why ‘Lutherans’ follow Luther and not Jesus Christ…sad…

 

[TriuneUnity]

I still don’t get why ‘Lutherans’ follow Luther and not Jesus Christ…sad…

You do know how ignorant this comment sounds, right?

 

[Matariel]

I still don’t get why ‘Lutherans’ follow Luther and not Jesus Christ…sad…

Churchcamefirst, that was totally wrong, and a bad thing to say. Lutherans are our brothers in Christ, and I won’t tolerate things like this on my thread. :nope:

Sorry, Triune.

 

[Matariel]

Not sure on this one…But we include, for example, Moses, Hannah, Joshua…I know saints like these are included in the Eastern calendars.

Yeah.

Many would disagree. Unfortunately, most of them probably don’t spend too much time thinking those issues through.

Hm. I see.

But I could equally make the argument that Paul exhorts Timothy to take care with who he ordains simply because there are many untaught and unstable men running around. It doesn’t mention anything about sacramental grace being conferred in succession, as Rome, the East, and Anglicans may maintain.

I’m sorry, I disagree. But I think Lutherans are a fine and reasonable bunch, don’t get me wrong. And they kept the concept of the Real Presence in Sacramental Union.

Or in the case of the Baptists, taking the bathwater as far away from the baby as possible until they grow up LOL.

Or the baptismal water, LOL!

If you look at the photo, you can see the Arabic letters on the book for “Qu’ran.”

Hm. Admittantly not one of his finer moments… either he was mistaken, or wanted to pal-pal too much with the Muslims.

Geez…

 

[TriuneUnity]

Churchcamefirst, that was totally wrong, and a bad thing to say. Lutherans are our brothers in Christ, and I won’t tolerate things like this on my thread. :nope:

Sorry, Triune.

Not your responsibility.

Ignore works wonders, I’ve found.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I’m sorry, I disagree. But I think Lutherans are a fine and reasonable bunch, don’t get me wrong. And they kept the concept of the Real Presence in Sacramental Union.

From scripture only, how would you establish apostolic succession? I know we may have to agree and disagree here. Of course, Anglicans believe in it as does the East and both are not Roman Catholic…so, really, it isn’t a big deal whether you do or not and probably won’t affect your standing before God lol

 

[Matariel]

From scripture only, how would you establish apostolic succession? I know we may have to agree and disagree here. Of course, Anglicans believe in it as does the East and both are not Roman Catholic…so, really, it isn’t a big deal whether you do or not and probably won’t affect your standing before God lol

UGH! I typed out a giant long spiel and my computer had problems and erased it.

It was much more detailed, but I’ll show a little of what I said and a website:

I was talking about how Christ breathed on the Apostles (in John 23 I believe?) and gave them the ability to forgive sin in His Name.

So we see a visible transfer of sacramental authority here:

Jesus —> Apostles

We also see this when Christ speaks of binding and loosening, although this involves more than sacramental Absolution. Then we see in James:

“Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders [presbyters, or priests] of the church, and let them pray over him… the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven” (Jas. 5:14–15)

Now, this also involves the Sacrament of Unction, but here you see the prayer of the priest remitting (like when Christ granted that authority to Apostles) the sins of the sickened man.
So, sacramentally, we see authority to forgive sin transfered from:

Christ -----> Apostles ----> Bishops and Priests

Whereas Christ transfers this sacramental authority by breathing on them, they confer this authority by laying on of hands. This is just the tip of the iceburg, but it’s late, so I’ll try to get back to you later.

This also goes along nicely with:

Firmilian

“Therefore the power of remitting sins was given to the apostles, and to the churches which they, sent by Christ, established, and to the bishops who succeeded to them by vicarious ordination.” (A.D. 256)

Here’s a good website related to this topic (Roman Catholic):

scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html

Some say that any power given to the apostles died with them. Not so. Some powers must have, such as the ability to write Scripture. But the powers necessary to maintain the Church as a living, spiritual society had to be passed down from generation to generation. If they ceased, the Church would cease, except as a quaint abstraction. Christ ordered the apostles to, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations.” It would take much time. And he promised them assistance: “Lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age”.

 

[TriuneUnity]

UGH! I typed out a giant long spiel and my computer had problems and erased it.

It was much more detailed, but I’ll show a little of what I said and a website:

I was talking about how Christ breathed on the Apostles (in John 23 I believe?) and gave them the ability to forgive sin in His Name.

So we see a visible transfer of sacramental authority here:

Jesus —> Apostles

We also see this when Christ speaks of binding and loosening, although this involves more than sacramental Absolution. Then we see in James:

Now, this also involves the Sacrament of Unction, but here you see the prayer of the priest remitting (like when Christ granted that authority to Apostles) the sins of the sickened man.
So, sacramentally, we see authority to forgive sin transfered from:

Christ -----> Apostles ----> Bishops and Priests

Whereas Christ transfers this sacramental authority by breathing on them, they confer this authority by laying on of hands. This is just the tip of the iceburg, but it’s late, so I’ll try to get back to you later.

This also goes along nicely with:

Firmilian

Here’s a good website related to this topic (Roman Catholic):

scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html

Some say that any power given to the apostles died with them. Not so. Some powers must have, such as the ability to write Scripture. But the powers necessary to maintain the Church as a living, spiritual society had to be passed down from generation to generation. If they ceased, the Church would cease, except as a quaint abstraction. Christ ordered the apostles to, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations.” It would take much time. And he promised them assistance: “Lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age”.

Here’s a good Lutheran take on it, Mat

wlsessays.net/files/BrugApostles.pdf

 

[Cinette]

We do not venerate saints. Our calendar of saint days is basically an abbreviated version of the Latin calendar. We also have feast days for saints from the Lutheran tradition (Martin Luther, Martin Chemnitz, etc.)

More so than most Protestants would. For example, feast days, naming churches after her. We also will use the title Mother of God and Blessed Virgin.

We neither deny or affirm her perpetual virginity as an article of faith.

Most do not. Many northern European churches adopted the same system as the Anglicans, but it is not official recognized by our Confessions of Faith. In the confessional view, apostolic succession is seen only inasmuch as the doctrine of the apostles is confirmed versus an application of laying on hands in holy orders.

Generally, the first six are seen as inerrant. Though along with the seventh ecumenical council, we do condemn iconoclasm.

Yes; but never at the expense of doctrine. Of course, one of the major failings of the Lutheran churches in America is to forcefully address the culture and seek open dialogue with other denominations.

Individuals, yes. We would consider all other churches to have truth mixed with error. Wherever the word of God is preached and the sacraments administered, there will be Christians.

Do Lutherans consider Martin Luther a saing?

 

[churchcamefirst]

Churchcamefirst, that was totally wrong, and a bad thing to say. Lutherans are our brothers in Christ, and I won’t tolerate things like this on my thread. :nope:

Sorry, Triune.

A bad thing to say? IT IS TRUTH my friend. Lutheran’s as well as the other 30,000 denominations in this world are nothing more than man made. Luther started the Reformation, changed the doctrines of the one true bible, protested the Catholic church and was a heretic. And you say this is a bad thing to say?? It is an historical fact of this man. Lutheran’s are NOT in full communion with the Catholic church, therefore are NOT my brothers and sisters in Christ. Brothers and sisters in Christ are the Catholic faith where these people follow Christ and his Word from the beginning of time. Nothing changed, nothing protested.
It is what it is.

 

[Cinette]

Do Lutherans consider Martin Luther a saing?

Sorry I made a mistake - Do Lutherans consider Martin Luther a saint!?

Thank you

 

[TriuneUnity]

Sorry I made a mistake - Do Lutherans consider Martin Luther a saint!?

Thank you

All Christians are saints.

 

[TriuneUnity]

A bad thing to say? IT IS TRUTH my friend. Lutheran’s as well as the other 30,000 denominations in this world are nothing more than man made. Luther started the Reformation, changed the doctrines of the one true bible, protested the Catholic church and was a heretic. And you say this is a bad thing to say?? It is an historical fact of this man. Lutheran’s are NOT in full communion with the Catholic church, therefore are NOT my brothers and sisters in Christ. Brothers and sisters in Christ are the Catholic faith where these people follow Christ and his Word from the beginning of time. Nothing changed, nothing protested.
It is what it is.

Actually, then, you deny the teachings of your own church because the Catechism says that Protestants are brothers and sisters in Christ.

Doesn’t that make you a schismatic?