Lutheran Doctrines

[IowaJay]

Well, the list of disagreements that LCMS or WELS Lutherans would have with the ELCA would probably run on for several pages, so I’ll let Iowa address that one haha.

There are many differences indeed! Instead of listing them all, I think its safe to say that the differences flow from differing views of Scripture (LCMS/WELS more conservative, ELCA modernist) and the Lutheran Confessional documents (WELS/LCMS hold to them more strictly than the ELCA).

 

[IowaJay]

Yes! Lutherans are so reasonable… I’m glad they don’t reduce Mary to a little creche-figure at Christmas then pack her away permanently when he lights come down.

Do Lutherans ever name churches, like, “Saint Mary Lutheran Church” or things like that?

A Lutheran cathedral in Berlin finally reopened 60 years after being bombed in WWII is known as Frauenkirche - or Church of Our Lady.

 

[JonNC]

The Kieschnick Synod!

WELS here (I was born and raised LCMS)

Well, we have an ELCA, and LCMS, and a WELS…sounds like a bar in Wisconsin. This means there will be 6 different opinions now.

I was born and raised LCA/ELCA, and “converted” to LCMS. That means there’s now 10 different opinions.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I was born and raised LCA/ELCA, and “converted” to LCMS. That means there’s now 10 different opinions.

LOL…good thing you got out of dodge on that one.

 

[JonNC]

LOL…good thing you got out of dodge on that one.

For our Catholic friends, there is a uniting factor for all Lutherans:
Beer goes well with bratwurst.

 

[Steadfast]

For our Catholic friends, there is a uniting factor for all Lutherans:
Beer goes well with bratwurst.

And coffee goes well with…well, everything really.

But especially green jello.

 

[Peter_J]

Between the LCMS and WELS, not many. We disagree on fellowshipping with other denominations. LCMS Lutherans will not share the altar for communion with those they disagree with, or exchange pulpits for preaching. Us WELS believe that any form of fellowship requires full doctrinal agreement, not just communion and preaching.

Can you give a concrete example of something the LCMS would participate in, that the WELS wouldn’t?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Can you give a concrete example of something the LCMS would participate in, that the WELS wouldn’t?

Yes. After Sept. 11th 2001, there was an ecumenical prayer service held at Yankee Stadium with participants from several major denominations, as well as representatives of Judaism, Islam, and a few others. WELS Lutherans would not participate. We also would not do ministry with members of a different church. For example, gospel outreach to a community.

 

[Steadfast]

It should be mentioned that Rev. Behnke (the LCMS pastor who participated) came under a good deal of criticism from within the Synod for his participation in the service.

 

[JonNC]

Yes. After Sept. 11th 2001, there was an ecumenical prayer service held at Yankee Stadium with participants from several major denominations, as well as representatives of Judaism, Islam, and a few others. WELS Lutherans would not participate. We also would not do ministry with members of a different church. For example, gospel outreach to a community.

Remember, TU, that Pastor Benke was roundly criticized for his act of “syncretism”. So the Yankee Stadium deal is not as clear-cut as some might think.

Jon

 

[TriuneUnity]

Remember, TU, that Pastor Benke was roundly criticized for his act of “syncretism”. So the Yankee Stadium deal is not as clear-cut as some might think.

Jon

Correct. However, Mr. Benke was in no way disciplined for his action partly because of his close friendship with Mr. Kieschnick, nor do LCMS rules prevent it, per se.

 

[Cinette]

I was born and raised LCA/ELCA, and “converted” to LCMS. That means there’s now 10 different opinions.

Am I correct in understanding that LCA, ELCA and LCMS are splintered groups of a church?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Am I correct in understanding that LCA, ELCA and LCMS are splintered groups of a church?

The LCA became the ELCA. The LCMS is a different Synod. Both the LCMS and the WELS would not consider the ELCA to be orthodox Lutherans (if Lutheran at all).

 

[JonNC]

Am I correct in understanding that LCA, ELCA and LCMS are splintered groups of a church?

Actually, the LCA is a predecessor body of the ELCA. Generally, the different synods in America, while they have conflicting opinions in some areas, really are a reflection of different ethnic roots, different European origins.

 

[Peter_J]

It sounds like the differences you’re talking about, between the LCMS and the WELS, are a lot like differences that exist among Orthodox concerning prayer with non-Orthodox: some Orthodox are OK with joint prayer with other Christians (as long as there’s no intercommunion) whereas other Orthodox see even that as an unacceptable practice.

 

[TriuneUnity]

It sounds like the differences you’re talking about, between the LCMS and the WELS, are a lot like differences that exist among Orthodox concerning prayer with non-Orthodox: some Orthodox are OK with joint prayer with other Christians (as long as there’s no intercommunion) whereas other Orthodox see even that as an unacceptable practice.

All we need are the beards and fuzzy hats!

Yes, we would consider joint prayer a form of fellowship and thus subject to full doctrinal agreement.

 

[Matariel]

Yes. After Sept. 11th 2001, there was an ecumenical prayer service held at Yankee Stadium with participants from several major denominations, as well as representatives of Judaism, Islam, and a few others. WELS Lutherans would not participate. We also would not do ministry with members of a different church. For example, gospel outreach to a community.

Interesting. So if there were another Christian and a WELS-Lutheran, and they were good friends and wanted to pray together, is that acceptable?

Also, do Lutherans pray the rosary or any rosary-like prayers? I know Luther did.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Interesting. So if there were another Christian and a WELS-Lutheran, and they were good friends and wanted to pray together, is that acceptable?

Also, do Lutherans pray the rosary or any rosary-like prayers? I know Luther did.

Yes, that would be considered fellowship. Though praying for the person would certainly be okay and biblical.

No; AFAIK the rosary was introduced after the Reformation, so we wouldn’t have inherited this practice from the Church. There would certainly be nothing wrong with doing something similar if the Hail Mary were not used. Many other litanies would be OK, too.

 

[Matariel]

Yes, that would be considered fellowship. Though praying for the person would certainly be okay and biblical.

I guess it’s different then communal liturgies or prayer?

No; AFAIK the rosary was introduced after the Reformation, so we wouldn’t have inherited this practice from the Church.

But I thought it developed since long, long ago; maybe it wasn’t in the present form, but I thought Luther did pray it? Or maybe just the Hail Mary…

There would certainly be nothing wrong with doing something similar if the Hail Mary were not used.

Do Lutherans disagree with the praying of the Hail Mary, or were you just say it would be ok to use other prayers/litanies?

Many other litanies would be OK, too.

Yes. I like the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, and sometimes I pray St. Patrick’s Breastplate (A lovely, moving litany attributed to St. Patrick) with the rosary beads.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I guess it’s different then communal liturgies or prayer?

In mutual prayer services and fellowship, any mutual action is an affirmation of each other’s doctrines. Praying with a Catholic or Presbyterian, for example, would be a statement that the papacy, or double predestination are acceptable beliefs. Praying for a person is not such an affirmation but a gesture of concern for the individual.

But I thought it developed since long, long ago; maybe it wasn’t in the present form, but I thought Luther did pray it? Or maybe just the Hail Mary…

The Hail Mary is older than the rosary. AFAIK the rosary itself developed in the late 16th/17th century. The Hail Mary at Luther’s time did not include “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.” So for Luther, it would’ve been “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.”

Do Lutherans disagree with the praying of the Hail Mary, or were you just say it would be ok to use other prayers/litanies?

We would disagree with it because it is a form of intercession.

Yes. I like the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, and sometimes I pray St. Patrick’s Breastplate (A lovely, moving litany attributed to St. Patrick) with the rosary beads.

Yep…both of those would be fine. Most of the litanies at use in confessional Lutheran churches would be the penitential litanies.