Lutheran pastor: Do not be afraid to ask for the intercession of the saints

[SamDash]

At Grace & St. Paul’s Lutheran Church in Manhattan today, the pastor exhorted the congregation not to be afraid to ask for the intercession of the saints in Heaven.

Luther himself was quite devoted to the Virgin Mary, but the abuse of the cult of the saints in his time led him to encourage a new focus on recourse to Christ himself. Once an abuse is corrected, though, it’s okay to stress again the underlying truth that the abuse exaggerated in such a way as to render false — in this case, the truth that it is the proper work of Christians, in heaven and on earth, in time and out of time, to pray for one another.

The pastor, the Rev. Martin Hauser, was very eloquent on the subject. I would just query him on one, broader point. He said that, as far as he was concerned, “the reformation is over.” If he meant Reformation-with-a-capital-R — the historic movement of the 16th century to recover the Gospel from certain very particular abuses – then that Reformation is certainly over. (A couple of years ago, I heard a Presbyterian minister in the pulpit declare that he thought the Catholics had done a better job of the Reformation at Vatican II “than we did in the 16th century.”) But if he means reformation-with-a-lower-case-R — the eternal struggle of the Christian community to live up to the challenge that their rabbi opened up for them – then that reformation will never end, this side of the Kingdom; there will never be a moment in time, be it 33 A.D., 1517, 1955, 1975, or 2575, when we can say, Now the church is perfect. Ecclesia semper, semper reformanda.

 

[missB]

Hello. As a Lutheran, I am pleasantly surprised that a pastor would say this. The Lutheran Church does profess the communion of Saints. However, to my knowledge, this is the first time I’ve heard a pastor encourage his congregation to ask for their intercession. In all my years of Sunday School and Confirmation class, I didn’t learn about Luther’s devotion to Mary. In my Catechism, Luther states that while the saints are in heaven, they aren’t able to intercede for us. This was one of the most difficult questions I had when considering Catholicism. Once I understood the practice, it didn’t seem so strange to me. While I’m sure there are still abuses of the practice, I’ve come to understand that a Christian should never place another creature or object above God. Even the Virgin Mary would object to this practice!

 

[Oldtimer_7]

Luther did not see a necessity for intercession. He taught that we could approach God directly. That does not negate intercessory prayer, but makes it something that is desired rather than required. As a Christian, I can pray for anyone else, and consider it part of my vocation that I do. After all, the Lord’s prayer is essentially an intercessory prayer, otherwise we would say “I” and “my” instead of “us” and “our.” Since Christ has won us victory over death, then it becomes irrelevant whether our intercessor is dead or alive.

 

[Newbie2]

In my education as a former LCMS Lutheran, the “communion of saints” was a very vague, ill-defined concept. I’ll have to ask my LCMS minister-in-training buddy what they’re teaching nowadays at the Seminary.

 

[JonNC]

At Grace & St. Paul’s Lutheran Church in Manhattan today, the pastor exhorted the congregation not to be afraid to ask for the intercession of the saints in Heaven.

I commend Pastor Hauser for this, a recognition as to one of the reasons why the Lutheran reformers discouraged invocation. That is, the abuse of the practice during the Reformation era.
And as a Lutheran, I consider two things: 1) invocation is a centuries old practice both east and west. 2) while there may be no explicit command, promise, or example of it in scripture, neither is there a specific prohibition.

My hope is that Pastor Hauser’s comments spark a new discussion of invocation among Lutherans, with an eye on the real reasons for its discouragement in the confessions, and consider whether or not those reasons still exist.

bookofconcord.org/defense_20_saints.php

Jon

 

[wmscott]

Hello. As a Lutheran, I am pleasantly surprised that a pastor would say this. The Lutheran Church does profess the communion of Saints. However, to my knowledge, this is the first time I’ve heard a pastor encourage his congregation to ask for their intercession. In all my years of Sunday School and Confirmation class, I didn’t learn about Luther’s devotion to Mary. In my Catechism, Luther states that while the saints are in heaven, they aren’t able to intercede for us. This was one of the most difficult questions I had when considering Catholicism. Once I understood the practice, it didn’t seem so strange to me. While I’m sure there are still abuses of the practice, I’ve come to understand that a Christian should never place another creature or object above God. Even the Virgin Mary would object to this practice!

Just to be perfectly clear, Catholics do not, nor is it their theology, to place another creature or object above God, even the Blessed Mother.

 

[loneviking]

This church and it’s minister are members of ELCA. These are the Lutherans (if you can call them that) that now ordain homosexuals and have women ministers (along with other problems). As far as many of us in the LCMS, WELS and other synods can see, they have walked away from the Lutheran Confessions and really aren’t Lutherans anymore.

 

[JohnnyReb]

This is an encouraging sign. The intercession of the saints is something neglected in most Protestant circles. Even among those who profess it, it is often not practiced. This is one area where I appreciate the Catholic practice and doctrine, and my church professes to believe in the intercession of the saints. My Episcopal church even does prayers for the dead every Sunday as part of the service.

Evangelical Protestants are the ones to object most strongly to asking the saints for intercession and to prayers for the dead.

 

[missB]

My apologies if I was unclear in my last post. I understand it’s not the Catholic position to place another being above God. I was never one to believe that Catholics worship saints, even when I didn’t fully understand the practice. I’ll second the oppinion of the poster who claimed that the ELCA are no longer Lutherans. I see their liberal stances as nothing more than an acceptance of popular oppinion with no Scriptural basis. I am really disgusted that the ELCA has sold out to political correctness. Please forgive me if I come across as harsh. I have relatives who’re ELCA, and they’re great people. Christ never claimed that one would win a popularity contest by being Christian, quite the opposite. BTW, excellent quote from then Cardinal Ratzinger regarding the Eucharist.

 

[gcnuss]

I’ll second the oppinion of the poster who claimed that the ELCA are no longer Lutherans. I see their liberal stances as nothing more than an acceptance of popular oppinion with no Scriptural basis. I am really disgusted that the ELCA has sold out to political correctness. Please forgive me if I come across as harsh. I have relatives who’re ELCA, and they’re great people. Christ never claimed that one would win a popularity contest by being Christian, quite the opposite. BTW, excellent quote from then Cardinal Ratzinger regarding the Eucharist.

I would like to emphasize that there are many within the ELCA (although the number is dwindling) who do not accept the actions of the 2009 Church-wide Assembly. I am one of those. I have stated that publicly and will continue to do so.

 

[loneviking]

I would like to emphasize that there are many within the ELCA (although the number is dwindling) who do not accept the actions of the 2009 Church-wide Assembly. I am one of those. I have stated that publicly and will continue to do so.

True, there are quite a few individuals within ELCA who haven’t completely lost the Lutheran faith. My comment was in regards to the denomination as a whole. STill, I don’t see how you can continue to support a denomination with errors this serious much less accept a paycheck from them.

 

[JonNC]

This church and it’s minister are members of ELCA. These are the Lutherans (if you can call them that) that now ordain homosexuals and have women ministers (along with other problems). As far as many of us in the LCMS, WELS and other synods can see, they have walked away from the Lutheran Confessions and really aren’t Lutherans anymore.

While your comment has some validity regarding the leadership of the ELCA, many of its members, including many in my extended family, are truely confessional Lutherans who have vocally objected to the recent Churchwide assembly’s decision, as well as some of their past ones.
Credit where credit is due, the ELCA has been a positive force in ecumenical dialogues with Rome. The LCMS has been unnecessarily reluctant to do so, even though we are better positioned doctrinally to be successful. Frankly, our position regarding the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification is, in my opinion, disappointing at best.

Jon

 

[IowaJay]

True, there are quite a few individuals within ELCA who haven’t completely lost the Lutheran faith. My comment was in regards to the denomination as a whole. STill, I don’t see how you can continue to support a denomination with errors this serious much less accept a paycheck from them.

The paycheck comes from the congregation, not the denomination. There are many orthodox congregations that remain, and need orthodox pastors.

 

[JonNC]

The paycheck comes from the congregation, not the denomination. There are many orthodox congregations that remain, and need orthodox pastors.

Absolutely true, Jay. One of the effects of last year’s Churchwide Assembly, from what a family member of mine told me, is that a lot of ELCA laity have cut off giving money to the synod (earmarking it for local congregation or charitable efforts, instead), which has caused a financial strain in Chicago. Good for them!!

Jon

 

[wmscott]

My apologies if I was unclear in my last post. I understand it’s not the Catholic position to place another being above God. I was never one to believe that Catholics worship saints, even when I didn’t fully understand the practice. I’ll second the oppinion of the poster who claimed that the ELCA are no longer Lutherans. I see their liberal stances as nothing more than an acceptance of popular oppinion with no Scriptural basis. I am really disgusted that the ELCA has sold out to political correctness. Please forgive me if I come across as harsh. I have relatives who’re ELCA, and they’re great people. Christ never claimed that one would win a popularity contest by being Christian, quite the opposite. BTW, excellent quote from then Cardinal Ratzinger regarding the Eucharist.

Thanks missB and I understand, I just wanted to make sure that others who are not as discerning as most of the Lutherans are with regards to this subject did not start the Catholic worship saints and Mary bit.

 

[gcnuss]

I have to apologize for contributing to a drift from the subject of this thread which is an important discussion for those of us who are Lutheran and for our Catholic brothers and sisters.

I am certain that God and Jesus hear my prayers. I don’t know if the saints (and the Blessed Virgin) can hear my prayers or not. Thus, I’m not certain of the efficacy of prayers requesting the intercession of the saints. However, I suspect that God answers heartfelt prayers that are intended for him even when they are, in a sense, channeled through the saints.

Something that does bother me is the way some people expect the saints to make things happen – e.g., burying a statue of a saint in one’s backyard when one is trying to sell a house with the belief that this will speed up the sale. That strikes me as a bit over the top.

The saints, of course, are great examples of faith. Even those whose lives were not totally exemplary have much to teach us.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Something that does bother me is the way some people expect the saints to make things happen – e.g., burying a statue of a saint in one’s backyard when one is trying to sell a house with the belief that this will speed up the sale. That strikes me as a bit over the top.

The saints, of course, are great examples of faith. Even those whose lives were not totally exemplary have much to teach us.

People bury St Joseph upside down to sell their houses. It reeks of superstition. Especially since most of the people who do it aren’t very faithful.

Having said that, when I sold my house last year, everything went smoothly and quickly. I take an elderly couple to mass once a month. The man, Joe, doesn’t talk much, but after I sold my house, he told me he had been praying for a quick sale for me!

 

[qui_est_ce]

I would like to emphasize that there are many within the ELCA (although the number is dwindling) who do not accept the actions of the 2009 Church-wide Assembly. I am one of those. I have stated that publicly and will continue to do so.

There are plenty of university and teaching jobs for Lutheran pastors who convert. Ask Marcus Grodi.

 

[wmscott]

I have to apologize for contributing to a drift from the subject of this thread which is an important discussion for those of us who are Lutheran and for our Catholic brothers and sisters.

I am certain that God and Jesus hear my prayers. I don’t know if the saints (and the Blessed Virgin) can hear my prayers or not. Thus, I’m not certain of the efficacy of prayers requesting the intercession of the saints. However, I suspect that God answers heartfelt prayers that are intended for him even when they are, in a sense, channeled through the saints.

Something that does bother me is the way some people expect the saints to make things happen – e.g., burying a statue of a saint in one’s backyard when one is trying to sell a house with the belief that this will speed up the sale. That strikes me as a bit over the top.

The saints, of course, are great examples of faith. Even those whose lives were not totally exemplary have much to teach us.

Since you are a Lutheran pastor I would like to ask your opinion of the following from Tobit. I know that it is one of the Deuterocanonical books, which Protestants have removed from their bibles or disregard as being uninspired, however it goes to one of the points and references that the Catholic Church has with regards to intercessory prayer through the Blessed Mother and the Saints. I personally think that because of the divisions in the Church and the Protestant practice of “watering down” of a lot of the Catholic big “T” Traditions, Christianity has missed out on a lot of wonderful and beautiful aspects of the Christian faith. Here are the verses I was interested in you commenting on. Thanks in advance for your response.

Tobit 12:12-15 - “I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead. When you did not hesitate to get up and leave your dinner in order to go and bury the dead, I was sent to put you to the test. At the same time, however, God commissioned me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who enter and serve before the Glory of the Lord.”

Raphael is one of the seven specially designated intercessors who present man’s prayers to God. To me this indicates very clearly that those in heaven do hear us

 

[JonNC]

=wmscott;6884271]Since you are a Lutheran pastor I would like to ask your opinion of the following from Tobit. I know that it is one of the Deuterocanonical books, which Protestants have removed from their bibles or disregard as being uninspired, however it goes to one of the points and references that the Catholic Church has with regards to intercessory prayer through the Blessed Mother and the Saints. I personally think that because of the divisions in the Church and the Protestant practice of “watering down” of a lot of the Catholic big “T” Traditions, Christianity has missed out on a lot of wonderful and beautiful aspects of the Christian faith. Here are the verses I was interested in you commenting on. Thanks in advance for your response.

Hi Wm,
Not speaking for Pastor Gary, but I hope you don’t mind my comment. I believe, at least from my understanding, that for Lutherans, saying that we “disregard” the D-C’s is overstating.

Tobit 12:12-15 - “I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead. When you did not hesitate to get up and leave your dinner in order to go and bury the dead, I was sent to put you to the test. At the same time, however, God commissioned me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who enter and serve before the Glory of the Lord.”

Raphael is one of the seven specially designated intercessors who present man’s prayers to God. To me this indicates very clearly that those in heaven do hear us

Regarding Raphael, from the Apology of the Augsburg Confession:

Besides, we also grant that the angels pray for us. For there is a testimony in Zech. 1:12, where an angel prays: O Lord of hosts, how long wilt Thou not have mercy on 9] Jerusalem? Although concerning the saints we concede that, just as, when alive, they pray for the Church universal in general, so in heaven they pray for the Church in general, albeit no testimony concerning the praying of the dead is extant in the Scriptures, except the dream taken from the Second Book of Maccabees, 15:14.

Notice 2 things: 1) we recognize that Angels do pray for us, and we believe the saints do, as well. The question posed by the reformers regarding the saints is whether or not they (the saints) can hear our requests for intercession. And I think Pastor Gary makes that point - no testimony in scripture concerning pray to the saints. At another point, the confession says there is no command, promise, or example, except, as said here, for a dream in 2 Macc, and some might also say the vision in Revelation.
I personally, don’t believe this necessarily excludes the possibility, or even needs to result in a condemnation, of the practice. What it does say to me is that, short of a scriptural command, promise, or example, the conscience of the believer should not be bound to believe it. IOW, as this is not a matter directly involving salvation, the believer ought to have some freedom in the matter.
2) Notice that the reformers were not afraid to mention the D-C’s. Some charge that Luther and Lutherans base their questioning of the D-C’s on the contents. I would contend it has more to do with the history of D-C’s, and the many who also questioned their canonicity long prior to Luther.

Jon