Lutheran pastor: Do not be afraid to ask for the intercession of the saints

[gcnuss]

I have been in RCIA with people in their '80’s! You seem more knowledgeable than most Catholics about what the Church actually teaches, you might be able to teach RCIA.

:blush:Aw, shucks. I’m only a beginner myself although I have a good library of information about Catholicism.

 

[Nicea325]

I guess we should look at this as some kind of record… it took 32 posts before it got to Mary bashing.

Seriously! Sometimes I wonder how non-Catholics treat their own mothers?

 

[qui_est_ce]

I guess we should look at this as some kind of record… it took 32 posts before it got to Mary bashing.

I must have missed that. All I saw was link to a beautiful prayer to the mother of our Lord. Mary always points us to Jesus.

 

[missB]

Hello, I didn’t realize Luther wasn’t the author of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession. Sorry for the confusion. With regards to how Noncatholics treat their mothers, some probably are more respectful to their mothers than others. I checked out the Marian novenas that were referenced above. While I don’t find asking for Mary’s intercession “repugnant”, I can understand why a NonCatholic who is unfamiliar with the practice would find the wording a bit overdramatic. For me personally, I found it easier to accept the practice without any formal prayers, though I’m not sure why that is. Could someone please answer the question regarding the saints intercession and how it relates to the idea that those in heaven live in a state of complete bliss with no knowledge of what goes on here on earth? Also, does the LCMS have a calendar of saints? I thought it did, though I don’t remember hearing of one during Catechism class.

 

[qui_est_ce]

H While I don’t find asking for Mary’s intercession “repugnant”, I can understand why a NonCatholic who is unfamiliar with the practice would find the wording a bit overdramatic. For me personally, I found it easier to accept the practice without any formal prayers, though I’m not sure why that is.

Most Catholic parishes have Perpetual Help Devotions on Tuesdays. It’s an ancient prayer. Speaking the ancient words recited by so many throughout the ages lifts me from the banality of daily life in the secular world.

 

[wmscott]

Hello, I didn’t realize Luther wasn’t the author of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession. Sorry for the confusion. With regards to how Noncatholics treat their mothers, some probably are more respectful to their mothers than others. I checked out the Marian novenas that were referenced above. While I don’t find asking for Mary’s intercession “repugnant”, I can understand why a NonCatholic who is unfamiliar with the practice would find the wording a bit overdramatic. For me personally, I found it easier to accept the practice without any formal prayers, though I’m not sure why that is. Could someone please answer the question regarding the saints intercession and how it relates to the idea that those in heaven live in a state of complete bliss with no knowledge of what goes on here on earth? Also, does the LCMS have a calendar of saints? I thought it did, though I don’t remember hearing of one during Catechism class.

Sorry I can’t answer this one because those in heaven are alive in Christ and are not oblivious to our prayers.

Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us. LINK

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).

And

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16). LINK

 

[wmscott]

I must have missed that. All I saw was link to a beautiful prayer to the mother of our Lord. Mary always points us to Jesus.

No… the poster in post 32 is saying that he or she finds the beautiful prayer to the mother of our Lord as being repugnant.

 

[Zooey]

Hello, I didn’t realize Luther wasn’t the author of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession. Sorry for the confusion. With regards to how Noncatholics treat their mothers, some probably are more respectful to their mothers than others. I checked out the Marian novenas that were referenced above. While I don’t find asking for Mary’s intercession “repugnant”, I can understand why a NonCatholic who is unfamiliar with the practice would find the wording a bit overdramatic. For me personally, I found it easier to accept the practice without any formal prayers, though I’m not sure why that is. Could someone please answer the question regarding the saints intercession and how it relates to the idea that those in heaven live in a state of complete bliss with no knowledge of what goes on here on earth? Also, does the LCMS have a calendar of saints? I thought it did, though I don’t remember hearing of one during Catechism class.

The saints, since they are with God in eternity, and therefore “know as [they] are known”, are not deterred from the perfect bliss of the Beatific Vision by their knowledge of our needs.
In other words, as I understand it, when we are in Heaven ( & please, God, may we all join you there one day!), we too, will not suffer the same as we do on earth. Their presence with God gives them perfect peace & perfect bliss. And their joy at the privilege of intercessory prayer for their fellow Christians is only made greater by that eternal happiness which they now enjoy.*

*And now 414 Catholics will tell you that the Methodist-In-Residence is:blush: full of bologna…and explain it properly.

 

[JonNC]

Hello, I didn’t realize Luther wasn’t the author of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession. Sorry for the confusion. With regards to how Noncatholics treat their mothers, some probably are more respectful to their mothers than others. I checked out the Marian novenas that were referenced above. While I don’t find asking for Mary’s intercession “repugnant”, I can understand why a NonCatholic who is unfamiliar with the practice would find the wording a bit overdramatic. For me personally, I found it easier to accept the practice without any formal prayers, though I’m not sure why that is. Could someone please answer the question regarding the saints intercession and how it relates to the idea that those in heaven live in a state of complete bliss with no knowledge of what goes on here on earth? **Also, does the LCMS have a calendar of saints? **I thought it did, though I don’t remember hearing of one during Catechism class.

Here is the calendar from the LCMS website.

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=866

Jon

 

[PAboy57]

There are many Saints in Heaven very willing to help us if we just ask. Since I am a weak human I need all the help I can get I ask for help often. I love praying to our Blessed Mother as well as several Saints. They all will lead us to Jesus. I wish everyone could take advantage of a wonderful opportunity open to everyone.

If that isn’t for you I understand and wish you the best on your journey. Hope to meet you in Heaven sooner or later. God Bless.

 

[csx333]

Another reason I’m leaving the LCMS:

Of the Antichrist

(St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.)

[Adopted 1932]

1. As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18,have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome] and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist “as God sitteth in the temple of God,” 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ’s sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation – these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is “the very Antichrist.” (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)

It’s in their constitution still. How can any Catholic dialogue with them?

 

[wmscott]

Another reason I’m leaving the LCMS:

Of the Antichrist

(St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.)

[Adopted 1932]

1. As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18,have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome] and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist “as God sitteth in the temple of God,” 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ’s sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation – these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is “the very Antichrist.” (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)

It’s in their constitution still. How can any Catholic dialogue with them?

WOW JonNC I would like to get some clarity form you since you have always been level headed in your assessments here.

 

[csx333]

More about the antichrist from the LCMS home page:

To the extent that the papacy continues to claim as official dogma the canons and decrees of the Council of Trent which expressly anathematizes, for instance, the doctrine “that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified,” the judgment of the Lutheran confessional writings that the papacy is the Antichrist holds. At the same time, of course, we must recognize the possibility, under God’s guidance, that contemporary discussions and statements (e.g., 1983 U.S. Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogue statement on “Justification by Faith”) could lead to a revision of the Roman Catholic position regarding Tridentine dogma.

They have not revised this as far as I know. I was an LCMS member for 28 years.

 

[JonNC]

WOW JonNC I would like to get some clarity form you since you have always been level headed in your assessments here.

I have said before, and even started a thread regarding my belief that this is dated polemics, and should be removed from not only Church documents, but also the Lutheran Confessions.
I, too, would leave the LCMS before I would confess this as doctrine. It is not doctrine, and its charge is at best dated to medieval times.

The sad fact is that there are condemnations between Catholics and Lutherans, put forward by both sides that wound further Christ’s Church and ministry. I believe that we can have differences without polemics, of which this is amongst the worst.

Jon

EDIT: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=250002

 

[csx333]

If its no big deal why does the so-called “Lutheran Vatican” in St.Louis not do something about it still being in official documents?

IMO, from being in LCMS for a long time, there is pride there which leads to a “we’re better than Catholics” attitude. Our Sunday School leader (pastor’s wife) and the pastor himself continue to spread misinformation and untruths about the Catholic Church.

The Truth found in the Catechism, Chesterton and Belloc’s writings, among other sources, led me to the Roman Catholic Church. My wife said to never mention my conversion to our daughter’s in-laws as they are proud LCMS folks and would consider me dead.

 

[JonNC]

=csx333;6894692]If its no big deal why does the so-called “Lutheran Vatican” in St.Louis not do something about it still being in official documents?

First, I didn’t say that its no big deal. Those are your words. Since I’m not the presiding bishop (President), nor on the CTCR, I’m not in a position to change it.

IMO, from being in LCMS for a long time, there is pride there which leads to a “we’re better than Catholics” attitude. Our Sunday School leader (pastor’s wife) and the pastor himself continue to spread misinformation and untruths about the Catholic Church.

Care to elaborate on the misinformation and untruths? Did you (properly) confront the pastor to provide documentation of his charges?
As to the pride issue, that’s in every Church, and certainly in the LCMS.

The Truth found in the Catechism, Chesterton and Belloc’s writings, among other sources, led me to the Roman Catholic Church. My wife said to never mention my conversion to our daughter’s in-laws as they are proud LCMS folks and would consider me dead.

If they would consider you dead, then they are wrong, and I would question if they even know what Luther taught. If the Holy Spirit is blessing you in word and sacrament in the Catholic Church, they should thank God that you are being blessed. I do.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

My wife said to never mention my conversion…

I’m curious, csx. If you have converted to the CC, why does your profile list you as Lutheran?

Jon

 

[wmscott]

I have said before, and even started a thread regarding my belief that this is dated polemics, and should be removed from not only Church documents, but also the Lutheran Confessions.
I, too, would leave the LCMS before I would confess this as doctrine. It is not doctrine, and its charge is at best dated to medieval times.

The sad fact is that there are condemnations between Catholics and Lutherans, put forward by both sides that wound further Christ’s Church and ministry. I believe that we can have differences without polemics, of which this is amongst the worst.

Jon

EDIT: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=250002

Thanks Jon, I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut and explanation. As always very straightforward and informative, I had known that you have addressed this before but did not remember when and where.

 

[placido]

Just to be perfectly clear, Catholics do not, nor is it their theology, to place another creature or object above God, even the Blessed Mother.

Yes, because if we did, we would have to ask God to pray for us to Blessed Mary. That is one thing those who accuses us of evelating Mary above God never consider.

placido

 

[placido]

This church and it’s minister are members of ELCA. These are the Lutherans (if you can call them that) that now ordain homosexuals and have women ministers (along with other problems). As far as many of us in the LCMS, WELS and other synods can see, they have walked away from the Lutheran Confessions and really aren’t Lutherans anymore.

Since Lutherans have no pope, any declaration like the one you made above, is invalid. You consider them not Lutheran enough, and they will consider you not Lutheran enough … and the confusion continues.

placido