Lutheran pastor: Do not be afraid to ask for the intercession of the saints

[placido]

I’m not trying to stir up trouble here, but things like stalphonsusbalt.org/stamother.htm are quite repugnant to me

Sellective exposure may be the source of your repugnancy … the result of being systematically exposed to Catholic prayers to Mary, while at the same time systematically being denied access to Catholic prayers to Jesus [like the ones found here http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/prayer.php?s=5].

placido

 

[loneviking]

Since Lutherans have no pope, any declaration like the one you made above, is invalid. You consider them not Lutheran enough, and they will consider you not Lutheran enough … and the confusion continues.

placido

There’s no confusion. Either an individual or a group adheres to the Augsberg confession, and the related documents, or they don’t.

 

[frjsummerville]

As a Lutheran (ELCA) pastor, I have no issue with asking the saints to pray for us. In fact, the Apology to the Augsburg Confession grants that the Virgin Mary and even the angels pray for the church (Article XXI). I think that Lutherans, in a sense, threw the baby out with the bathwater in the Reformation era. Now, there were several in our class at seminary who prayed the rosary. I still do, as does my wife. As did Luther.
The whole point is that the saints are not dead; they are alive in Christ. They therefore can pray for us just as our neighbor does.
As for remaining in the ELCA, while I do not agree with the churchwide decisions of 2009, I nevertheless remain, hoping to be a bastion of orthodoxy and orthopraxis in the midst of the craziness.
Blessings!
Fr. Joey+

 

[wmscott]

As a Lutheran (ELCA) pastor, I have no issue with asking the saints to pray for us. In fact, the Apology to the Augsburg Confession grants that the Virgin Mary and even the angels pray for the church (Article XXI). I think that Lutherans, in a sense, threw the baby out with the bathwater in the Reformation era. Now, there were several in our class at seminary who prayed the rosary. I still do, as does my wife. As did Luther.
The whole point is that the saints are not dead; they are alive in Christ. They therefore can pray for us just as our neighbor does.
As for remaining in the ELCA, while I do not agree with the churchwide decisions of 2009, I nevertheless remain, hoping to be a bastion of orthodoxy and orthopraxis in the midst of the craziness.
Blessings!
Fr. Joey+

Welcome Pastor Summerville to CAF, thank you for your insight regarding this subject. I look forward to future edifications from you and your experiences.

I would like to just ask a question and that is there seems to be Lutherans who are either against the idea of intercessory prayers of the saints and the Blessed Mother, or they are neutral or at least do not see any harm in it, and finally Lutherans that practice intercessory prayers. Do you have any thoughts as to why the differing attitudes within Lutheranism?

 

[frjsummerville]

I think it has a lot to do with a) where they came from and b) from their pastor. Some parts of the Lutheran Church have always had a knee-jerk anti-Catholicism, as is seen by the old references to the papacy as the antichrist. That idea “stuck” in the ideas of some, and therefore they think anything remotely Catholic is somehow bad. Thankfully that is not the case in the vast majority of Lutherans! Some areas of the Lutheran world are more “Catholic” than others in areas of theology and liturgy. Some see the Augsburg Confession as a reforming document which shows how we are in continuity with the Catholic Church. Others see it as a revolutionary document the purpose of which is to protest and say how different we are from the Catholic Church. So it kinda depends on where they came from…some Luthean places in Germany and Scandinavia are VERY Catholic…same here in the U.S. Others are barely distinguishable from a ‘generic protestant.’ (Generalization, I know…)

It also has to do with their pastor. Some of our seminaries are more on the ecumenical and “high church” side…mine was that way (Lutheran Theological Southern Seminary in Columbia, SC)…some are more low-church evangelical. So how the pastor was educated and what ideas he was exposed to during his education also have a lot to do with it.

Hope that helps!

 

[qui_est_ce]

I think it has a lot to do with a) where they came from and b) from their pastor. Some parts of the Lutheran Church have always had a knee-jerk anti-Catholicism, as is seen by the old references to the papacy as the antichrist. That idea “stuck” in the ideas of some, and therefore they think anything remotely Catholic is somehow bad. Thankfully that is not the case in the vast majority of Lutherans! Some areas of the Lutheran world are more “Catholic” than others in areas of theology and liturgy. Some see the Augsburg Confession as a reforming document which shows how we are in continuity with the Catholic Church. Others see it as a revolutionary document the purpose of which is to protest and say how different we are from the Catholic Church. So it kinda depends on where they came from…some Luthean places in Germany and Scandinavia are VERY Catholic…same here in the U.S. Others are barely distinguishable from a ‘generic protestant.’ (Generalization, I know…)

It also has to do with their pastor. Some of our seminaries are more on the ecumenical and “high church” side…mine was that way (Lutheran Theological Southern Seminary in Columbia, SC)…some are more low-church evangelical. So how the pastor was educated and what ideas he was exposed to during his education also have a lot to do with it.

Hope that helps!

I find “it has to do with the pastor” disturbing. It reminds me of the cult of personality. Do you see a lot of this?

 

[gcnuss]

As a Lutheran (ELCA) pastor, I have no issue with asking the saints to pray for us. In fact, the Apology to the Augsburg Confession grants that the Virgin Mary and even the angels pray for the church (Article XXI). I think that Lutherans, in a sense, threw the baby out with the bathwater in the Reformation era. Now, there were several in our class at seminary who prayed the rosary. I still do, as does my wife. As did Luther.
The whole point is that the saints are not dead; they are alive in Christ. They therefore can pray for us just as our neighbor does.
As for remaining in the ELCA, while I do not agree with the churchwide decisions of 2009, I nevertheless remain, hoping to be a bastion of orthodoxy and orthopraxis in the midst of the craziness.
Blessings!
Fr. Joey+

Welcome to CAF from one of several of the Lutherans who have found it to be a wonderful place to join in discussions about the faith we share. I am fully in agreement with you about remaining in the ELCA, hoping to provide an anchor point for orthodoxy while resisting the onslaughts of those who would deny 2000 years of Christian teaching.

 

[gcnuss]

I find “it has to do with the pastor” disturbing. It reminds me of the cult of personality. Do you see a lot of this?

I think that there is a danger of a “cult of personality” whenever one has a strong, charismatic leader. Within the church, this can manifest itself in a strong attachment to a particular priest/pastor. I think we most often see this in some of the responses to the well-known televangelists, but it is certainly not limited to them.

My own early thoughts about Catholicism were greatly influenced by the pastor who confirmed me. He was about as anti-Catholic as it was possible to be and, for many years, I was very uncomfortable about even being near a Catholic church. Needless to say, that is no longer the case. I was even able to enjoy taking some of my seminary courses in Catholic schools. But, yes, it can have a great deal to do with the pastor and, I suspect, it can work the other way as well if a priest emphasizes some of the old polemics about Lutherans.

I am blessed to come to know my Catholic brothers and sisters more fully on CAF, to be able to share with them those things which bring us together, and to converse with love about those things that keep us apart – for now.

 

[placido]

There’s no confusion. Either an individual or a group adheres to the Augsberg confession, and the related documents, or they don’t.

And who judges infallibly that a group or an indiviadual is or is not adhering to the Augsberg confession?
In the absence of such an authority, any one can claim to be adhering to the confession or claim that those who disagree with him don’t adhere to the confession. I repeat: that breeds confusion.

placido

 

[qui_est_ce]

I am blessed to come to know my Catholic brothers and sisters more fully on CAF, to be able to share with them those things which bring us together, and to converse with love about those things that keep us apart – for now.

It’s always a pleasure to dialog with you here!

I’ve never heard a pastor rail against non Catholics. The homily is supposed to be a reflection on the readings. There are some Catholics who will say they were told in grade school that all nonCatholics go to Hell. I’ve never heard that in my 16+ years of Catholic education. I think either they have selective memories, or if they were really told that, the teacher was poorly catechized. (And many Catholics are indeed poorly catechized). We were just looking things up in our Catechism at Bible study last night. The teaching of the Church is that those who are raised in other religions can be saved if they honestly follow their faith. It’s called “invincible ignorance.” Those who know the Catholic faith and reject it are condemn themselves as heretics.

 

[qui_est_ce]

And who judges infallibly that a group or an indiviadual is or is not adhering to the Augsberg confession?
In the absence of such an authority, any one can claim to be adhering to the confession or claim that those who disagree with him don’t adhere to the confession. I repeat: that breeds confusion.

placido

Here’s another thing. The Augsberg Confession cannot address modern issues such as human cloning, birth control, transplants, and “extraordinary” means of preserving life. There is no authority to speak to these issues, and therefore, each person is left to interpret for himself. This allows people like Pastor Gary and Fr. (FATHER??) Summerville to remain in ELCA and consider themselves Lutheran ELCA, even though they are in disagreement with many of ELCA’s beliefs and practices.

There are some who call themselves Catholic, but do not follow the teachings of the Church. But I wouldn’t raise them to the same level as those ELCA members who are trying to adhere to the true elements of Lutheranism in ELCA.

Paul Devantier says “Protestantism” is really a testimonial. A positive Pro testimonial. It is FOR something not AGAINST something. Maybe it’s his spin, but I liked it. I miss him.

 

[missB]

Hi, I didn’t know that the above-quoted articles regarding the Pope as AntiChrist were still part of the LCMS confession. That is disturbing indeed! I’m happy to hear of Lutherans who practice the intercession of the Saints, as I was not taught to ask for their prayers. I would second the points regarding the differences between Lutheran pastors. I have found some to be more liberal than others. I too think it’s ironic that the LCMS doesn’t take a more active role in dialogue with the Catholic church, given their theology is generally more compatible. I would agree with the previous poster, I think Luther did “throw the baby out with the bath water.” And, I can’t tell you how much confusion this has caused in my spiritual life! With lots (and I do mean lots) of prayer, and research, I’m beginning to feel a bit more at home with Catholicism. I too hope and pray for full unity between Lutheranism and Catholicism. Perhaps if the authors of the articles in question would have met Pope Benedict XVI, they would have a different opinion. Even before he was elected, Cardinal Ratzinger was very involved in Lutheran-Catholic dialogue.

 

[JonNC]

I find “it has to do with the pastor” disturbing. It reminds me of the cult of personality. Do you see a lot of this?

I bothers me, too, Christine. I sometimes here have heard the complaint that a priest has made comments that the poster felt was not true Catholic teaching. Sometimes clergy, Catholic or Lutheran, get away with stuff because the laity isn’t always well catechized in either communion. Knowing what the Catholic Catechism says is important for Catholics, and knowing the Lutheran Confessions is important for Lutherans. And sometimes, those of us in the laity who are well read need to (properly and respectfully) question our clergy when they appear to have swerved.

My personal experience is that I do not see it much at all. Raised by a Lutheran pastor, he didn’t often even talk about, and certainly didn’t rail about our differences with the CC. More with the Reformed as they rejected the real presence, but not from the pulpit as I recall.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I think it has a lot to do with a) where they came from and b) from their pastor. Some parts of the Lutheran Church have always had a knee-jerk anti-Catholicism, as is seen by the old references to the papacy as the antichrist. That idea “stuck” in the ideas of some, and therefore they think anything remotely Catholic is somehow bad. Thankfully that is not the case in the vast majority of Lutherans! Some areas of the Lutheran world are more “Catholic” than others in areas of theology and liturgy. Some see the Augsburg Confession as a reforming document which shows how we are in continuity with the Catholic Church. Others see it as a revolutionary document the purpose of which is to protest and say how different we are from the Catholic Church. So it kinda depends on where they came from…some Luthean places in Germany and Scandinavia are VERY Catholic…same here in the U.S. Others are barely distinguishable from a ‘generic protestant.’ (Generalization, I know…)

It also has to do with their pastor. Some of our seminaries are more on the ecumenical and “high church” side…mine was that way (Lutheran Theological Southern Seminary in Columbia, SC)…some are more low-church evangelical. So how the pastor was educated and what ideas he was exposed to during his education also have a lot to do with it.

Hope that helps!

Welcome, Father, to CAF. I’ve enjoyed your (name removed by moderator)ut already.
Where in Texas are you?

Jon

 

[frjsummerville]

I guess I need to clarify. To put it in Catholic terms, I know some priests who are very devoted to particular saints. One of my friends who is a priest from Poland really talks a lot about his devotion to Our Lady of Czestochowa…and he encourages that devotion. I taught at a Catholic school for a few years and as there was a large Hispanic population, the clergy there really emphasized devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe. Kinda the same thing. In parishes (Catholic or Lutheran) the clergy are not carbon copies. Yes, we make vows at our ordinations to preach and teach correct doctrine, but we all have different styles and, well, some of us get excited about different things.

I don’t remember who said it on here, but referring to the Augsburg Confession, ELCA Lutherans believe that it must be interpreted. It is an almost 500-year old document. The ecclesial situation is different now. Some of those polemic writings are totally irrelevant now. I remember our history prof in seminary, prior to discussing the reformation era, saying, “Before I begin, please understand that the Roman Catholic Church is NOT today like it was in the Medieval era! We cannot put that image on the Church of today.” The Roman Catholic Church underwent a reformation from the way it was prior to Luther…the reforms of Trent and of Vatican II both helped to clear up issues that had arisen in the Catholic Church. So with the Augsburg Confession (indeed, with all of the Lutheran Confessional writings) it must be interpreted in its historical context. And again, as I said in a previous post, I interpret the Augustana as a document which shows how much we have in common with the Catholic Church…as a truly ecumenical document.

I am serving at Alvin Lutheran Church in Alvin, TX…just south of Houston. As for “Father,” I do have some parishioners who call me “Father,” or “Pastor.” Most are “Pastor,” though. (And some call me ‘Fadduh Joey’ just to make me laugh.) Actually, in meetings my BISHOP will occasionally ask, “What do you think, Father Joe?” knowing that I have a more evangelical catholic theology and practice. So there you go.

Blessings to you!

 

[gcnuss]

I’ve never heard a pastor rail against non Catholics. The homily is supposed to be a reflection on the readings.

I may not have been very clear. The pastor in question made his anti-Catholic comments to our confirmation class – a group of four impressionable thirteen year old boys. I don’t ever recall sermons/homilies going down that path.

 

[wmscott]

I think it has a lot to do with a) where they came from and b) from their pastor. Some parts of the Lutheran Church have always had a knee-jerk anti-Catholicism, as is seen by the old references to the papacy as the antichrist. That idea “stuck” in the ideas of some, and therefore they think anything remotely Catholic is somehow bad. Thankfully that is not the case in the vast majority of Lutherans! Some areas of the Lutheran world are more “Catholic” than others in areas of theology and liturgy. Some see the Augsburg Confession as a reforming document which shows how we are in continuity with the Catholic Church. Others see it as a revolutionary document the purpose of which is to protest and say how different we are from the Catholic Church. So it kinda depends on where they came from…some Luthean places in Germany and Scandinavia are VERY Catholic…same here in the U.S. Others are barely distinguishable from a ‘generic protestant.’ (Generalization, I know…)

It also has to do with their pastor. Some of our seminaries are more on the ecumenical and “high church” side…mine was that way (Lutheran Theological Southern Seminary in Columbia, SC)…some are more low-church evangelical. So how the pastor was educated and what ideas he was exposed to during his education also have a lot to do with it.

Hope that helps!

It helps greatly and thank you for taking the time to explain it to me.

 

[Zooey]

Yes, because if we did, we would have to ask God to pray for us to Blessed Mary. That is one thing those who accuses us of evelating Mary above God never consider.

placido

Now, that is a very interesting thought. [SIGN1]Thank you!!:thankyou:[/SIGN1]

As a Lutheran (ELCA) pastor, I have no issue with asking the saints to pray for us. In fact, the Apology to the Augsburg Confession grants that the Virgin Mary and even the angels pray for the church (Article XXI). I think that Lutherans, in a sense, threw the baby out with the bathwater in the Reformation era. Now, there were several in our class at seminary who prayed the rosary. I still do, as does my wife. As did Luther.
The whole point is that the saints are not dead; they are alive in Christ. They therefore can pray for us just as our neighbor does.
As for remaining in the ELCA, while I do not agree with the churchwide decisions of 2009, I nevertheless remain, hoping to be a bastion of orthodoxy and orthopraxis in the midst of the craziness.
Blessings!
Fr. Joey+

Welcome to CAF!!

 

[davec66]

This is an encouraging sign. The intercession of the saints is something neglected in most Protestant circles. Even among those who profess it, it is often not practiced. This is one area where I appreciate the Catholic practice and doctrine, and my church professes to believe in the intercession of the saints. My Episcopal church even does prayers for the dead every Sunday as part of the service.

Evangelical Protestants are the ones to object most strongly to asking the saints for intercession and to prayers for the dead.

I’m sorry intersession of the saints is not biblical. You are to pray to only to God through his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus is our high priest. Jesus is our only intercessor. The bible is very clear on this.

 

[wmscott]

I’m sorry intersession of the saints is not biblical. You are to pray to only to God through his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus is our high priest. Jesus is our only intercessor. The bible is very clear on this.

Please show me in the Bible where it says “You are to pray to only to God through his Son Jesus Christ” and “Jesus is our only intercessor” Chapters and verses please.