- Status
J
JustaServant
Guest
The Trads are gonna go off the deep end with this news.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Yep.On both sides.
Jon
Talking with them is very similar to talking with fundamentalists.
Anymore I come to NCR to get a break!
Ironic that you come to us n-C’s to get a break. But no more ironic than the fact that I don’t venture in the n-C’s websites.Yep.
Talking with them is very similar to talking with fundamentalists.
Anymore I come to NCR to get a break!
Jon
T
twopekinguys
Guest
Some people wouldn’t be happy if you hung them with a new rope. 
J
JustaServant
Guest
Only if the exact, correct rubrics are used as per the long Tradition of Lynching.Some people wouldn’t be happy if you hung them with a new rope.
Outside of that, you cannot hang them…
I gotta stop going to the TC forum.
T
twopekinguys
Guest
LOL, have a couple of cocktails, then go back to the TC forum.Only if the exact, correct rubrics are used as per the long Tradition of Lynching.
Outside of that, you cannot hang them…
I gotta stop going to the TC forum.
I bet it would be really pretty.
C
Corki
Guest
Dr. Schneider has some interesting points and an intriguing “wish list” but I would put money on the fact that you aren’t going to see the Catholic Church celbrating the Protestant Revolution.
M
Monergistic
Guest
The issue of ecumenism is not one of trying to bring all Christians under one highly centralized authority, nor is it a question of how best to eliminate the competition. The issue is one of brotherhood, and the question is one of submission. For Bible quotes, I go to Ephesians 5.
It begins. “Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.” And what better way to start in on Christian ecumenism. We are imitators of God, we are children of God. We have a common identity and a common purpose- at least in a broader sense.
Verse 6, and so forth. “Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partners with them; for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.” This portion draws a clean, straight line of demarcation between children of light and children of darkness. We all know the answer, but I put this out there as a reminder- are Catholics and Protestants (Lutherans in particular, per the OP) both belonging to the children of light, or is one group generally belonging to a different group than the other? Again, we all know the answer.
But then, beginning in verse 15, we approach the tricky part. “Look carefully then how you walk…do not be foolish…do not get drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit…giving thanks always.” All of this, of course, is the stuff that all children of light should do. All of it has to do with how children of light should behave- both in general and toward each other.
And then the tricky part. “Submitting to one another out of reverence to Christ.” And boom goes the dynamite. Sure, it’s easy when Catholics are submitting to Catholics. But how does this work when some children of light are Catholic and some are Lutheran? Ephesians 5 immediately goes on in detail about wives, husbands, and that submission. As it so happens, the main focus and primary concern being addressed in this meeting has to do with the tens of thousands of Lutheran-Catholic mixed marriages in Germany.
So there is a question here that looms large in its importance, although it can be awkward to say and to answer so it tends to be more in the background. But the question is this: What is the best way for a Catholic to submit to a Protestant and vice versa, particularly when they’ve married each other? Moving on from that, how can Lutheran and Catholic leaders work with each other in order to un-complicate the history that makes the issue a little difficult to deal with?
I don’t know which would be harder for a Catholic- determining how they should submit to Protestants, or deciding what sort of submission they should ask of Protestants. It should obviously be done out of reverence for Christ, and I would actually hope that what’s asked for is the same thing that’s offered.
Even if the correct answer is unclear, I hope that some silly answers can be more easily revealed as completely unworkable when the issue is presented in this way. For example, shall all the Lutheran spouses submit by becoming Catholic, while the Catholic spouses submit by being completely satisfied with that? Perhaps not, and the opposite of that is no more of a workable solution than the first one was.
I don’t know that I have a perfect answer to this situation, but I do know this. The question of submission between Catholics and Protestants is not an irrelevant, snarky non-issue. To the contrary, it is right at the core of Christian ecumenism. We understand that Catholics and Protestants are all Christians, we are all children of light. (Well, some Protestants haven’t gotten quite this far, but most Catholics have). But besides that, we are all called to submit one to another out of reverence for Christ, and nowhere is this issue more deeply felt than when a Catholic and Protestant are married to each other. We also understand that Catholics and Protestants will continue to exist as such- but despite the complications, we need to figure out the submission thing in a way that works well more consistently.
So hopefully, Dr. Schneider and Pope Francis can continue to collaborate and try to find ways to make this thing more workable. Evidently, a 30-minute meeting didn’t quite do the trick. But I do hope they found out that they want the same things, and maybe they can find ways to work together on them a little bit.
It begins. “Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.” And what better way to start in on Christian ecumenism. We are imitators of God, we are children of God. We have a common identity and a common purpose- at least in a broader sense.
Verse 6, and so forth. “Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partners with them; for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.” This portion draws a clean, straight line of demarcation between children of light and children of darkness. We all know the answer, but I put this out there as a reminder- are Catholics and Protestants (Lutherans in particular, per the OP) both belonging to the children of light, or is one group generally belonging to a different group than the other? Again, we all know the answer.
But then, beginning in verse 15, we approach the tricky part. “Look carefully then how you walk…do not be foolish…do not get drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit…giving thanks always.” All of this, of course, is the stuff that all children of light should do. All of it has to do with how children of light should behave- both in general and toward each other.
And then the tricky part. “Submitting to one another out of reverence to Christ.” And boom goes the dynamite. Sure, it’s easy when Catholics are submitting to Catholics. But how does this work when some children of light are Catholic and some are Lutheran? Ephesians 5 immediately goes on in detail about wives, husbands, and that submission. As it so happens, the main focus and primary concern being addressed in this meeting has to do with the tens of thousands of Lutheran-Catholic mixed marriages in Germany.
So there is a question here that looms large in its importance, although it can be awkward to say and to answer so it tends to be more in the background. But the question is this: What is the best way for a Catholic to submit to a Protestant and vice versa, particularly when they’ve married each other? Moving on from that, how can Lutheran and Catholic leaders work with each other in order to un-complicate the history that makes the issue a little difficult to deal with?
I don’t know which would be harder for a Catholic- determining how they should submit to Protestants, or deciding what sort of submission they should ask of Protestants. It should obviously be done out of reverence for Christ, and I would actually hope that what’s asked for is the same thing that’s offered.
Even if the correct answer is unclear, I hope that some silly answers can be more easily revealed as completely unworkable when the issue is presented in this way. For example, shall all the Lutheran spouses submit by becoming Catholic, while the Catholic spouses submit by being completely satisfied with that? Perhaps not, and the opposite of that is no more of a workable solution than the first one was.
I don’t know that I have a perfect answer to this situation, but I do know this. The question of submission between Catholics and Protestants is not an irrelevant, snarky non-issue. To the contrary, it is right at the core of Christian ecumenism. We understand that Catholics and Protestants are all Christians, we are all children of light. (Well, some Protestants haven’t gotten quite this far, but most Catholics have). But besides that, we are all called to submit one to another out of reverence for Christ, and nowhere is this issue more deeply felt than when a Catholic and Protestant are married to each other. We also understand that Catholics and Protestants will continue to exist as such- but despite the complications, we need to figure out the submission thing in a way that works well more consistently.
So hopefully, Dr. Schneider and Pope Francis can continue to collaborate and try to find ways to make this thing more workable. Evidently, a 30-minute meeting didn’t quite do the trick. But I do hope they found out that they want the same things, and maybe they can find ways to work together on them a little bit.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Submitting to Christians of other denominations is really stretching this passage. Besides submitting to a spouse (wife submitting to husband in reverence to Christ) really doesn’t apply here. Catholics and Lutherans are not married. This is often my disappointment with Protestants who often times use scripture irrelevantly.
M
Monergistic
Guest
Per the op, the main reason this meet happened has to do with Lutherans and Catholics who are married to each other in Germany. This is often my disappointment with Catholics who often times, oh come now I’m talking about you.
M
Marie5890
Guest
I think to what my pastor said upon Francis election.
“He is gonna turn somethings on it’s head, but our egos may blind us as to what he is trying to teach.”
We Americans, we do have egos that blind us due to our “rugged American individualism”
God have Mercy.
“He is gonna turn somethings on it’s head, but our egos may blind us as to what he is trying to teach.”
We Americans, we do have egos that blind us due to our “rugged American individualism”
God have Mercy.
M
MaryT777
Guest
I’ll add to that bet.Dr. Schneider has some interesting points and an intriguing “wish list” but I would put money on the fact that you aren’t going to see the Catholic Church celbrating the Protestant Revolution.
I
Indifferently
Guest
Why shouldn’t the RCC celebrate the Reformation? If there hadn’t been a Reformation there wouldn’t have been a Vatican II.
B
benjohnson
Guest
This news of this meeting makes me quite happy. All I can say is hurry up!
That this meeting makes all of us nervous is a good sign.
Interestingly, as a Lutheran, I took joy in the document from Pope Benedict that the article that “offinded” Protestants:
We’re not going to come together around the alter-rail if we aren’t truthful with each other - so why would should I take offense with frank and honest discussion based on fact?
That this meeting makes all of us nervous is a good sign.
Interestingly, as a Lutheran, I took joy in the document from Pope Benedict that the article that “offinded” Protestants:
- German-born Pope also “offended” Protestants when, as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, he insisted in 2000 that Protestant communities were not “churches in the proper sense” because they have not preserved apostolic succession among their bishops, nor a traditional understanding of the mystery of the Eucharist.*
We’re not going to come together around the alter-rail if we aren’t truthful with each other - so why would should I take offense with frank and honest discussion based on fact?
M
MaryT777
Guest
Why would we possibly celebrate the Reformation with the Lutherans given the Treatsie
of the Power and Primacy of the Pope in the Book of Concord (still their official teaching)
claiming the office of the Papacy is AntiChrist? Hmmmmmmmmmmm
That said it’s just a REASON not to celebrate and not to start another thread on the
AC topic. We’ve been there done that on other threads.
C
Corki
Guest
No, Vatican II is a long-term result of what Protestants call the counter-reformation.
Celebrating the split is like having a divorce party.
M
MaryT777
Guest
Thank you for posting this. Of course. To celebrate such a thing is bizarre at best.No, Vatican II is a long-term result of what Protestants call the counter-reformation.
Celebrating the split is like having a divorce party.
(in my opinion) It would mean “selling out” major differences in doctrine for the sake of unity and that’s false ecumenism.
- Status