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Monergistic
Guest
I can only assume your definition of true ecumenism means one group of people is totally uncompromising and the other finds some way to make that work?
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And the CC still calls us heresy.
The point is to do everything we can to get past that.
What I have heard is not a “celebration”, but a commemoration.
Jon
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Bklynguy
Guest
I assume you are not a traditionalist?Yep.
Talking with them is very similar to talking with fundamentalists.
Anymore I come to NCR to get a break!
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MaryT777
Guest
No… I am saying I am not willing to compromise on doctrines rejecting the Papacy or
calling the office anti Christ. never.
Now if they can make that work…that would mean to me the Lutherans would need to update their confessions and reject that doctrine officially.
The Lutheran Catholic dialogue did not have the LCMS/Wels/confessional Lutherans signing anything agreeing to the joint declaration on the doctrine of justification.
The Lutheran World Federation is more willing to dialogue.
Justification is not in agreement between the confessional Lutherans and Rome.
However the ELCA who did sign the JDDJ have moral values that are contrary to the Catholic teachings.
So no I don’t believe in compromising docrine for unity but I have never met any Confessional Lutheran that does either accept maybe here?
Lutherans are waiting for “Rome” to “lift” the excommunication from Martiin Luther.
Will that Happen…?
Hmmmmmmm.
Not yet anyways.
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MaryT777
Guest
LOL. I thought the same thingI assume you are not a traditionalist?
We did sign the “Hope for Eternal Life”No… I am saying I am not willing to compromise on doctrines rejecting the Papacy or
calling the office anti Christ. never.
Now if they can make that work…that would mean to me the Lutherans would need to update their confessions and reject that doctrine officially.
The Lutheran Catholic dialogue did not have the LCMS/Wels/confessional Lutherans signing anything agreeing to the joint declaration on the doctrine of justification.
The Lutheran World Federation is more willing to dialogue.
Justification is not in agreement between the confessional Lutherans and Rome.
However the ELCA who did sign the JDDJ have moral values that are contrary to the Catholic teachings.
So no I don’t believe in compromising docrine for unity but I have never met any Confessional Lutheran that does either accept maybe here?
Lutherans are waiting for “Rome” to “lift” the excommunication from Martiin Luther.
Will that Happen…?
Hmmmmmmm.
Not yet anyways.
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm
Jon
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MaryT777
Guest
Jon, what doctine are you willing to compromise on if Rome compromised on one?And the CC still calls us heresy.
The point is to do everything we can to get past that.
What I have heard is not a “celebration”, but a commemoration.
Jon
Just curious.
No compromises, Mary. That would be false unity, and disrespectful to both our communions. Convergence is what we need. Its what one sees, in part, in the JDDJ, which I support. The linked Hope of Eternal Life is very good, as well.
Let the Spirit lead us into unity.
However, were unity to come,
, apostolic succession, Transubstantiation, even invocation would not be a stumbling block for me - personally.Jon
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MaryT777
Guest
Yes.We did sign the “Hope for Eternal Life”
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm
Jon
Do you forsee the LCMS ever adding their signature to the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification JDDJ (I’m trying to follow forum rules not to abbreviate LOL in case someone wonders why I type that out-lurkers have written to ask what that is
)If I understand correctly Martin Luther felt that was the doctrine the Church would stand
or fall on; or something as such. I also read online the LCMS had some real issues with the siging of that declaration by the LWF.
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MaryT777
Guest
I really love visiting the LCMS Church here where my friend is Associate Pastor.No compromises, Mary. That would be false unity, and disrespectful to both our communions. Convergence is what we need. Its what one sees, in part, in the JDDJ, which I support. The linked Hope of Eternal Life is very good, as well.
Let the Spirit lead us into unity.
However, were unity to come,
Jon
The Christ Centered preaching and teaching is fantastic! I think sometimes the way we present things such as the Eucharist fails to really note it is Christ at the center that is of import thus why the Real Presence is of import. We could learn from the LCMS
Also I love the Law/Gospel way of preaching now that I am used to it and the Bible based sermons are great. I have learned a lot about the Bible by preaching it was excellent.
Converts also complain that Catholic Sermons/Homilies are “fluffly” Now I know what they mean. They aren’t as nuts and bolts sometimes. That’s just a difference in preaching.
I would like to see the Co-Redemptrix pharase obsolete! That leads to so many misconceptions and is to me not a good statement at all. I also cringe when I see
Catholics in HUGE groups carrying around a statue for I feel as a Church we have
an obligation to make it explicitly clear that Cross is the center of Christianity and
by his cross and resurrection he has set us free. He is the savior of the World.
Ok, Jon, Let’s join the next round of the Catholic Lutheran dialogue LOL (Wait My invitation isn’t here yet, did you get yours? LOL
)
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MartinJordan
Guest
I understand the Church is mulling it. Is it an official statement and dogma yet? I also don’t think the Church has any trouble understanding the Cross of Christ IS the centre. Pope Francis reiterated this in particular just as soon as he became the Holy Father.
Let us walk together along the Way of the Cross and let us do so carrying in our hearts this word of love and forgiveness. Let us go forward waiting for the Resurrection of Jesus, who loves us so much. He is all love.
MJ
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MaryT777
Guest
Yes it is an official statement and dogma. I am 100% Catholic .
I just wish there was a better way to e xpress the dogma so it’s understood better. I don’t claim to know more than the Holy Spirit of course but coming from years on non Catholic sites it’s really difficult it seems for persons not Catholic to understand.
I also don’t think the Church has any trouble understanding the Cross of Christ.
and I love Pope Francis already of course. I just sometimes wish we could present this more (but then the press loves to show all the Marian Devotion) when we dialogue with Lutherans specifically as this thread notes the Lutheran Pastor meets Pope Francis.
I just understand better how these things “appear” now from a Lutheran lense knowing a LCMS Pastor and make those statements in an effort to note I understand how these things can be dificult to understand when growing up non Catholic…
Therefore I am in Cocord with every drop of Catholic teaching for the record; I speak to the tone of the thread towards a better understanding between Lutherans and Catholics in the future and a hope towards unity at some point.
Peace in Christ,
Mary.
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MartinJordan
Guest
Thanks for the clarification. Odd how I didn’t realize it was dogma.Yes it is an official statement and dogma. I am 100% Catholic .
I just wish there was a better way to e xpress the dogma so it’s understood better. I don’t claim to know more than the Holy Spirit of course but coming from years on non Catholic sites it’s really difficult it seems for persons not Catholic to understand.
I also don’t think the Church has any trouble understanding the Cross of Christ.
and I love Pope Francis already of course. I just sometimes wish we could present this more (but then the press loves to show all the Marian Devotion) when we dialogue with Lutherans specifically as this thread notes the Lutheran Pastor meets Pope Francis.
I just understand better how these things “appear” now from a Lutheran lense knowing a LCMS Pastor and make those statements in an effort to note I understand how these things can be dificult to understand when growing up non Catholic…
Therefore I am in Cocord with every drop of Catholic teaching for the record; I speak to the tone of the thread towards a better understanding between Lutherans and Catholics in the future and a hope towards unity at some point.
Peace in Christ,
Mary.
Im the last person to know about the Lutheran churches and their views, so let me say and to be frank I don’t know what the problem is…because to me Mary cannot be separated from participating in the sufferings of her son.
If she didnt give her “fiat” there would be no redemption of the human race. God chose Man (woman) to bring forth his Son in to the world. If God chose man to be part of redemption and Mary being the closest to Jesus she can be called Co-Redemptrix. Infact when I read Gal 2:20 where St. Paul exhorts that-" I have been crucified with Christ.”. How much closer and connect is Mary?
Peace be with you.
MJ
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MaryT777
Guest
Not dogma; more like a Central Catholic truth, if I stand corrected.
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Bklynguy
Guest
Interesting–I many times feel the same way. I think it is beautiful that our Church honors Mary, but some corners seem to go a little far with it. Out of curiosity, do you ever feel a little uneasy saying the Hail Holy Queen or Memorare?
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MaryT777
Guest
Yes I agree wholeheartedly some corners seem to go a little far with it for my comfort zone.
I am not uneasy praying the Hail Holy Queen but the Memorare I don’t say (pray…I bet you know why) I do pray the Rosary daily.
My attempt to stay on topic is that I like the way the Lutheran Catholic diolgue is
being “done” for lack of a better word; focusing on key issues that divide us.
I think if we initially focused on “Mary” it would inhibit some real dialogue on other important issues that divide us.
I hope that doesn’t sound like I don’t love Mary of course to the Catholics, I am named Mary I just know it’s a tricky issue for converts as well sometimes. My best friend at Daily Mass
was a convert from the LCMS and that was a key problem for her in her conversion to the
Catholic Faith.
Towards a better understanding between Lutherans and Catholics.
Mary.
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Bklynguy
Guest
Yes, I know why you wouldn’t say the Memorare. I agree the same that I am much more comfortable saying the Hail Holy Queen, and I do many times, particularly as a closing to the Rosary. And I also, as you do, want to make clear that I love and honor our Blessed Mother. There is nothing more the Church or lay Catholics could do to honor Mary than what God already did–we honor her because we worship Him.Yes I agree wholeheartedly some corners seem to go a little far with it for my comfort zone.
I am not uneasy praying the Hail Holy Queen but the Memorare I don’t say (pray…I bet you know why) I do pray the Rosary daily.
My attempt to stay on topic is that I like the way the Lutheran Catholic diolgue is
being “done” for lack of a better word; focusing on key issues that divide us.
I think if we initially focused on “Mary” it would inhibit some real dialogue on other important issues that divide us.
I hope that doesn’t sound like I don’t love Mary of course to the Catholics, I am named Mary I just know it’s a tricky issue for converts as well sometimes. My best friend at Daily Mass
was a convert from the LCMS and that was a key problem for her in her conversion to the
Catholic Faith.
Towards a better understanding between Lutherans and Catholics.
Mary.
I agree it is good that Lutherans and Catholics are having dialogue. It is an important step since they are the first ones removed vis-a-vis the Protestant Reformation.
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MaryT777
Guest
Well said, I concur completely!
Mary.
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gcnuss
Guest
I haven’t been a party to this discussion, but I do want to add a few observations from the Lutheran side.
First of all, it is always good when Lutherans and Catholics gather to discuss matters of faith, of ecclesiology, and of our relations with one another. It seems, at times, that the progress of our discussions is unbearably slow. We (and I think I speak for both Lutherans and Catholics) would like to see things move along more rapidly. Of course, we have, for most of five centuries, been diverging rather than converging and it seems that changing our courses will take more time than we would hope.
Second, for better or worse, we have hopes and aspirations for our discussions that are not always congruent. To be sure, we pray for movement toward unity and we seek convergence in matters of faith but we still find ourselves separated because, despite worshiping the Triune God, we cannot fully accept each others’ positions in some matters of ecclesiology and theology.
In the end, all I can do is to continue to pray that the Holy Spirit will continue to lead us along the path to unity – a path the end of which we cannot now see but which must surely exist.
First of all, it is always good when Lutherans and Catholics gather to discuss matters of faith, of ecclesiology, and of our relations with one another. It seems, at times, that the progress of our discussions is unbearably slow. We (and I think I speak for both Lutherans and Catholics) would like to see things move along more rapidly. Of course, we have, for most of five centuries, been diverging rather than converging and it seems that changing our courses will take more time than we would hope.
Second, for better or worse, we have hopes and aspirations for our discussions that are not always congruent. To be sure, we pray for movement toward unity and we seek convergence in matters of faith but we still find ourselves separated because, despite worshiping the Triune God, we cannot fully accept each others’ positions in some matters of ecclesiology and theology.
In the end, all I can do is to continue to pray that the Holy Spirit will continue to lead us along the path to unity – a path the end of which we cannot now see but which must surely exist.
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Tomster
Guest
Finally!
I can agree with you 100% on something. (Although I haven’t read everything you have written). There must be something else we can agree on?
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