Lutheranism is the "pure" Church?

[MaryT777]

That “The name “Lutheran” was a slur intended to marginalize the Evangelical Catholic churches” is probably true but Catholics retained the name Catholic while Lutherans obviously adopted the name Lutheran (maybe not all but many) hence the name of the synod LCMS and the designation “Confessional Lutherans”.

I like the Lutheran folk I have met online, they have a good grasp of doctrine and scripture, and they share a great deal of Catholic theology as well as Liturgy but there are differences between Catholic and Lutheran teaching and despite the claims of some that Lutheranism is true to the original teaching of the church the facts do not bear that out especially on matters like the five solas and ‘the bondage of the will’.

PS: I do understand that saint Augustine can be construed - and has been construed by some - to teach something approaching the ideas expressed by Martin Luther in “The Bondage of the Will” but Catholics tend not to construe his teaching in that way.

 

[concretecamper]

I have asked this often. Please explain how and to whom the HS guides the Church, from a Catholic perspective. Also, how do we know it is not the other patriarchates the HS is guiding? Jon

I am sure there are more theological explanations…but I would rather give a more contemporary example.

The reason I know the HS does not guide the patriarchates is the caving in on the issue of contraception.

God is immutable.

 

[fhansen]

I agree. Please do not receive this as a personal attack, because you have always been a charitable and admirable poster here, but protestants are often accused of not looking at Church history, the ECF’s etc. It seems curious that, when we do, we are often reminded that the ECF’s do not necessarily speak for the Church. Or, when we reject something stated by them, we are accused of “cherry picking”. Now again, I am not speaking about you, but just the general trend.

What we get from the early Church is, as Luther says, universal agreement that in the Eucharist, we receive His true and substantial body and blood, to eat and drink for the remission of sin. What’s sad is that we agree on this, but are divided by our insistence on making doctrine that which need not be.

Jon

Jon, the point is that ultimately the Church doesn’t look to anyone outside herself, save the HS. She accepts edification from anyone that she deems- or more importantly, that she recognizes-as correct: ECFs, Augustine, Aquinas, various saints, etc, and rejects anything that she recognizes as being incorrect from the same exact sources. IOW the Church is the valid mouthpiece for God, not you or I or Luther or Calvin or Augustine or Aquinas. It cannot be any other way. And when two “churches” disagree on doctrine, then one or both must not really be the church Jesus established: they can’t both be from Him. From there it’s up to us as individuals to determine what constitutes the true church -to hear and recognize whether the truth, the voice of God, is issuing from it. But because Scripture isn’t capable of definitively establishing doctrine on it’s own, because the doctrine of Sola Scriptura itself is fallacious IOW, history becomes a critically important component in arriving at church authenticity. And from that perspective alone there’s little difference between Lutherans, Calvinists, and Jehovah’s Witnesses, even as we acknowledge there being more truth in the first than the second and vastly more in the first than the last.

 

[rfournier103]

Founded in the 16th century by a monk. Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ and entrusted to his Apostles

And their (the Apostles) legitimate successors. (ie: the Catholic Church)

 

[mark_a]

Hi Jon

Our perspective is that, while Christ’s Church has infallible teaching, individual humans, even popes and Magisterium, can be in error. That doesn’t mean the CC has “run off the rails”.
Jon

Jon

And there we have it: The Pilate dillema.

 

[cmodrmac]

Here in Florida the evangelical Lutheran Church is quite liberal & it is very difficult in its rites and belief to see any difference between the Episopal and Lutheral Churches

The MIssouri Synod is also represented here much morer traditional - certainly Luther did not set out to form a Church but I agree he wound up founding one

Differences from the roman catholics relate to issues of human sexuality -and the Authority of the Pope of course -oh and a little thing about indulgences

It seems to me that most LUtherans like being LUtherans and are proud of their Church-from a Catholic viewpoint I suspect they are hereticts while the episcopal Church is schismatic

 

[ufamtobie]

Hey Dustin,

I would say we are a part of the true Church Christ established. An exclusionary statement such as this seems, I would say, untypical of Lutheranism. Even Luther recognized the CC as the Church.
Jon

Jon, your quote above “I would say we are a part of the true Church Christ established”…“even Luther recognized the CC as the Church”.

What does Ignatius of Antioch say?

Ignatius of Antioch

“Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism , he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine , he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar,as there is** one bishop,** with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]).

Jon, as you whole heartedly know The Lutherans / Protestants don’t partake of the One Eucharist of the Catholic Church. The Lutheran alter is not the same as the One Alter in the Catholic Church. The Lutherans are not obedient / follow the One Bishop of the Catholic Church. So Jon, how can you say, as you stated above: “I would say we are a part of the true Church Christ established”?

Jon, there are many Lutheran /Protestants who are innocent / ignorant of the Catholic Church Teachings, However Jon, You are not innocent / ignorant of the Catholic Churches Teaching you know them very well.

Jon, as you stated above that Luther and you recognize the CC as the the Church, therefore as you know the Catholic Church Teachings is: for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

Jon, I fear for you, because you are not innocent nor ignorant of the Catholic Church Teachings. Jon, again, since you are not innocent / ignorant You must live in Catholic Unity from within the Catholic Church to be saved and not say: I would say we are a part of the true Church Christ established

Denying Jesus Christ Church he established is denying Jesus Christ Himself, because the two go hand in hand and can not be separated from one another.
Ufam Tobie

 

[benjohnson]

. Jon, again, since you are not innocent / ignorant

I would say that only God can look into our souls, and that the Gospel is best when it’s not Law.

 

[ufamtobie]

I would say that only God can look into our souls, and that the Gospel is best when it’s not Law.

BenJohnson,

So true God can look into our souls, however God sent his only begotten Son to die for us and to establish a Church for His people, a Church that we must hear and obey and reside in.

Jesus did no establish the Gospel to guide us but His Church, it is this Church that can only interpret the gospels for us and no other for it is this one Church that compiled the New Testament.

Jesus Christ never said upon this rock I will build the gospels, but upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell cannot prevail against it… Therefore denying the Catholic Church the only Church He established over 2000 years ago is denying Jesus Christ himself.

Ufam Tobie

 

[benjohnson]

So true God can look into our souls, however God sent his only begotten Son to die for us and to establish a Church for His people, a Church that we must hear and obey and reside in.

We Lutherans can be rather hard to persuade in this regard, for we know we’re in the OHCAC. Of course, good Catholics will disagree.

My gut reaction is that the Gospel and the Church are inseparable - that there is no reason to set them against each-other by ranking.

 

[Peter_J]

I am sure there are more theological explanations…but I would rather give a more contemporary example.

The reason I know the HS does not guide the patriarchates is the caving in on the issue of contraception.

As an Eastern Christian myself (Eastern Catholic more specifically, but still) I take issue with this statement.

For one thing, to speak of the Orthodox patriarchs “caving in on the issue of contraception” is a vast oversimplification; but to claim this as proof that “the HS does not guide the patriarchates” is even worse.

 

[concretecamper]

As an Eastern Christian myself (Eastern Catholic more specifically, but still) I take issue with this statement.

For one thing, to speak of the Orthodox patriarchs “caving in on the issue of contraception” is a vast oversimplification; but to claim this as proof that “the HS does not guide the patriarchates” is even worse.

I am sorry you took offense. But it is what it is.

 

[steido01]

I am sorry you took offense. But it is what it is.

 

[rinnie]

I have been told by Lutherans where I live (Lutheran heavy upper Midwest) that the Lutheran Church is the pure form of Catholicism that has not been perverted. They claim that the Lutheran Church is the church of the Gospel and the way Christ intended the Church to be. Many have gone on to say that the Lutheran faith is THE One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church rather than the Catholic Church. They believe that the Lutheran faith preaches the Gospel and the Catholic Church has ventured away from doing so. Basically, they are stating that they are the true Church established by Christ.

Are they wrong or spot on according to Lutheran teachings? The Lutherans here are very anti Catholic Church so it may just be a geographical thing and no Lutheranism as a whole. Please enlighten me because this is a tad disturbing.

If this is true then why was the first Church founded by Christ Catholic. And then if this is correct what are we to think of the Fathers Words.

On this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hades will not prevail? If the RCC is correct these words cannot be true.

I believe my Father who made me that promise. The gates of hades will not prevail.

 

[benjohnson]

but to claim this as proof that “the HS does not guide the patriarchates” is even worse.

Personally, the perseverance of the Eastern Church in the face of horrors of the 20th century - murder and purges with militant atheism and secularism is proof that the HS does guide them. And we should rejoice in this!

 

[benjohnson]

but to claim this as proof that “the HS does not guide the patriarchates” is even worse.

Personally, the perseverance of the Eastern Church in the face of horrors of the 20th century - murder and purges with militant atheism and secularism is proof that the HS does guide them. And we should rejoice in this!

 

[Peter_J]

I am sorry you took offense.

I’m glad to hear that … or would that be, I’m sorry to hear that? Not quite sure how etiquette works in this kind of situation.

 

[concretecamper]

I’m glad to hear that … or would that be, I’m sorry to hear that? Not quite sure how etiquette works in this kind of situation.

I am sorry that I upset you personally.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Jon, your quote above “I would say we are a part of the true Church Christ established”…“even Luther recognized the CC as the Church”.

What does Ignatius of Antioch say?

Ignatius of Antioch

“Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism , he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine , he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar,as there is** one bishop,** with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]).

Jon, as you whole heartedly know The Lutherans / Protestants don’t partake of the One Eucharist of the Catholic Church. The Lutheran alter is not the same as the One Alter in the Catholic Church. The Lutherans are not obedient / follow the One Bishop of the Catholic Church. So Jon, how can you say, as you stated above: “I would say we are a part of the true Church Christ established”?

Jon, there are many Lutheran /Protestants who are innocent / ignorant of the Catholic Church Teachings, However Jon, You are not innocent / ignorant of the Catholic Churches Teaching you know them very well.

Jon, as you stated above that Luther and you recognize the CC as the the Church, therefore as you know the Catholic Church Teachings is: for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

Jon, I fear for you, because you are not innocent nor ignorant of the Catholic Church Teachings. Jon, again, since you are not innocent / ignorant You must live in Catholic Unity from within the Catholic Church to be saved and not say: I would say we are a part of the true Church Christ established

Denying Jesus Christ Church he established is denying Jesus Christ Himself, because the two go hand in hand and can not be separated from one another.
Ufam Tobie

Still waiting for a reply from Jon

 

[JonNC]

=ufamtobie;11091993]Jon, your quote above “I would say we are a part of the true Church Christ established”…“even Luther recognized the CC as the Church”.
And I do, too, though neither he nor I would say that the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome is exclusively the Church.

What does Ignatius of Antioch say?

Ignatius of Antioch

"Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism , he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine , he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist

, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar,as there is** one bishop,** with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]).
Amen.

Jon, as you whole heartedly know The Lutherans / Protestants don’t partake of the One Eucharist of the Catholic Church. The Lutheran alter is not the same as the One Alter in the Catholic Church. The Lutherans are not obedient / follow the One Bishop of the Catholic Church. So Jon, how can you say, as you stated above: “I would say we are a part of the true Church Christ established”?

And yours is not one altar with ours, or with that of Orthodoxy. Since that is the case, your question could be asked of you, or them as well.

Jon, there are many Lutheran /Protestants who are innocent / ignorant of the Catholic Church Teachings, However Jon, You are not innocent / ignorant of the Catholic Churches Teaching you know them very well.

Jon, as you stated above that Luther and you recognize the CC as the the Church, therefore as you know the Catholic Church Teachings is: for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

Yes, I am aware of that teaching, and frankly I reject it. One does not have to be in communion with the Bishop of Rome to be Catholic

Jon, I fear for you, because you are not innocent nor ignorant of the Catholic Church Teachings.

Then please pray for me. Better still, pray that our leaders can once again unite the Church Catholic where our conversations of this type at moot. It can be done, with the Spirit’s guidance.

Jon, again, since you are not innocent / ignorant You must live in Catholic Unity from within the Catholic Church to be saved and not say:

I would say we are a part of the true Church Christ established

Being in the Church does not require being in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Denying Jesus Christ Church he established is denying Jesus Christ Himself, because the two go hand in hand and can not be separated from one another.

Ufam Tobie
And I have not denied His Church.

Jon