Lutheranism vs. Catholicism

[rdscheirer]

Grew up Lutheran now Catholic -thank you God- Luther CHANGED THE BILBLE-he changed the Letter of James and deleted “works”- James says" Faith without works is dead: I.e. if you are a believer and you don’t do good works your faith is dead(dormant)- read the early church fathers to see what Christianity is really about.

 

[Catholic90]

It grates me when people say the we believe in consubstantiation, no where in our Confessions or writing of the Lutheran fathers does it stat this, this was a charge that the Calvinist brought. The Calvinist don’t like either of us.

LCMS believes the Lord’s Supper IS the body and blood, not a symbol.

lcms.org/page.aspx?pid=388
How is Jesus present in His Supper?
We do not try to explain how Jesus is present under the bread and wine of the Lord’s Supper, rather we believe, teach, confess and rejoice that He is present.We Lutherans let the words of Jesus stand without arguing about their possibility, or trying to explain how they are true.As Luther put it so clearly, “We maintain that the bread and the wine in the Supper are the true body and blood of Christ”(SA III.6). Everyone who communes receives into their mouths the body and blood of Jesus Christ, whether they believe it or not, be they worthy or unworthy.
Jesus’ Word is sure and certain. The Holy Spirit gives us faith to trust in and believe Jesus’ words,“Given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins.” Faith in Christ’s promise is what makes us worthy to receive His Supper. Christ’s words of institution retain their validity and efficacious power and thus, by virtue of these words,the body and blood of Christ are truly present, distributed and received.
*Your body and your blood, once slain and shed for me, are taken at your table, Lord, in blest reality. Search not how this takes place, this wondrous mystery; God can accomplish vastly more than what we think could be. *

 

[JoshuaNY]

The Lutherans believe that the eucherist is symbolic. Catholics believe that it is the body of Christ.
-Lutherans deny infant baptism while Catholics practice it.

Lutherans and Catholics are quite similar. I really think MOST of our differences are a matter of semantics. We practice the same thing but explain it differently.

All Lutherans and I mean all Lutherans fully beleive in the Real Presence in the Eucharist. If you do not beleive that, you are no longer Lutheran. We do not try to explain it with words like consubstantiation, impanation or transubstantiation. We simply take Gods word for it. "This is my body’ so it is so. If someone says so its like consubstantiation we say no God said “This is my body” that is what we beleive. We do not use words to describe it, we just beleive because Jesus said so.

If you ever hear someone who says they are Lutheran say “The Eucharist is symbolic”, then they are really not Lutheran. Just as I am sure you would agree if a Roman Catholic said the same thing they would no longer be RC even though they say they are.

Infants are absolutely baptised, in fact the RCC holds our baptisms as valid

Edit: Oops Catholic90 beat me to it

 

[Alix1912]

-Lutherans believe that one is saved by faith alone. Catholics believes faith plus works.

• The Catholics believe that the tradition is authoritative. Protestants believe in sola scriptura (only the bible is authoritative)
  The Lutherans believe that the eucherist is symbolic. Catholics believe that it is the body of Christ.
  -Lutherans deny infant baptism while Catholics practice it.
• Catholic bibles have 7 extra books and the Protestant bibles have 66 books.
  -Lutherans deny purgatory.
  -Lutherans deny immaculet conception.
• I think Lutherans don’t see Mary as the “Queen of Heaven” and they don’t pray to her or the saints.

Luther wrote that works without faith are meaningless, but that once you have faith you will naturally want to do good things and work for God. However the thought that one can work one’s way into heaven is wrong.

The LCMS believes that Communion IS a sacrament and is the Real Body and Blood of Christ.

The LCMS do recgonize and practice tradition…however traditions cannot contradict the Bible (ie indulgences as they were used in the 1500).

ALL Lutheran synods practice infant baptism. The Baptists do not believe in infant baptism.

The LCMS accept the extra books as important and historical and good to study, they just aren’t cannon

Luther actually believed in Purgatory. The modern synods choose not to speculate on how God handles souls who have been saved after death.

I’m not escatly sure where we are on the immaculate conception of Mary. I find no scriptural evidence either way and it honestly make no difference either way to me.

As to her being Queen of Heaven…same response as above. We do recognize the massively important role she played in Christianity. There is a Lutheran Rosary that includes the “Hail Mary”. We don’t pray to saints, but many LCMS churches celebrate All Saints Day, and many Lutheran Churches (espeically older ones) are named after Saints.

Sorry about the incorrect information. I forgot that there was difference beliefs within the protestant denomination.

Seriously it would benifit you greatly and cause less ill will if you did a little reseach before posting incorrect information as fact. You would be angry if we started making claims like Catholics are Pagans, they worship Mary, they don;t read the Bible, they worship statues…Those claims are about as accurate as the ones you made above.

The apology is much appreciated, but it helps it we stick to debating actual doctrine.

Also just as you can access the Catholic Catachism online, our doctrine is posted online as well.

 

[pablope]

Where did you get your information about Lutherans?
Lutherans do not believe in purgatory.

you.

Hi, HN…you may want to revisit purgatory. JonNC provided a link to the CC/Lutheran dialogue…purgatory was in the discussion.

Hopefully, Jon will repost it here…from what I recall…ML believed on some kind of purgatory or purgation at the end of life, he did not just agree with the Catholic concept or understanding (as I recall). ML was also mainly against the practices or abuses attached to the belief, not against the concept.

 

[pablope]

What’s the difference between these two?

I think the sacraments. They do not regard Holy Orders, Annointing of the Sick, Matrimony and Confession as sacraments.

Though, from some Lutheran posters, I think they are reconsidering the importance of Confession.

Also (I stand corrected if I am wrong), no central teaching authority like the Magisterium, and do not recognize the pope. I think this may be why there are different denominations (for lack of a better word=would “branch” be the right word?)-there is the ELCA, WELS, the LCMS, at least this I am aware of.

 

[fred_conty]

I believe Luther had a different view on the effect of baptism. Didn’t he think that the soul was wrapped in some sort of blanket of goodness and that the soul remained in sin? Sort of like a spiritual M&M, sugar coated with chocalate inside, or a wrapping of cleanness with sin still inside. That made the person still evil although justified by goodness with which it was wrapped.

The catholic has quite a different view on the effect of baptism. The soul receives the light and life of Jesus which then eliminates sin all together. And now the person is an adopted child of God, beautiful to God, in which the Father can now say “this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased.” The person is holy as God is holy, because of the divine life it received.

The differences above are quite great.

In the Catholic view, the person is holy and now performs works which are pleasing and acceptable to the Father from a son who offers them to Him. And all things are pleasing to the Father because he sees the divine life of Christ beating in this person. Now works do sanctify and do merit a growth in sanctifying grace(divine life) in the soul. These works
now contribute to the growth in holiness of the person, that is, more like Christ.

In the Luthern view, the person is not holy because of sin still in the soul, even tho justified by the white blanket of God. Therefore every work is actually done in sin, tho the person is justified to go to heaven. Now works are of little, if any, value. The doctrine of faith only masks the need for good works which the person is not qualified to do because of the state of sin. So therefore, works get very little of their actual importance.​

In true communion let us gather, may all divisions cease,
and in their place be Christ the Lord, Our risen Prince of Peace. (hymn)

 

[fred_conty]

Thanks Hn for the link you provided

Since I agree with much of the doctrines of the Lutheran Church,I am in the process of converting.And I am tired of the condescension shown protestants.By the way,there is another forum where you can meet and exchange ideas with other christians who are less judgemental.It is called:http:// cristianforums.com.I am a member and I have learned so much about other denominations and what they believe.They even have a Lutheran forum.

Hi,
Why are you impressed with the Luthern faith? What are the points which you favor over
the catholic? I’m not aware of anything so would you help me out? Thanks

 

[Holly3278]

Lutherans believe in something similar to Consubstantiation while Catholics believe in Transubstantiation.

 

[William_Pitts]

There is a channel on youtube that is called Lutheran Satire this both very funny and fairly informative. It points out the differences between conservative Lutherans and the more liberal Lutherans. I enjoy the videos. Here is a sample.

youtube.com/watch?v=prAhi7DcvzQ

 

[franny50]

To Fred Conty:

I have stated my opposition to many of the catholic churches’ teachings(you can read all of my posts) and have been told by numerous catholics on this site that I sound more like a protestant and have been accused of being a “protestant plant”.You can find my beliefs under my posts.The Lutheran church shares a lot of similarities to the catholic church,so It is my first choice in terms of a new church home.

 

[Alix1912]

To Fred Conty:

I have stated my opposition to many of the catholic churches’ teachings(you can read all of my posts) and have been told by numerous catholics on this site that I sound more like a protestant and have been accused of being a “protestant plant”.You can find my beliefs under my posts.The Lutheran church shares a lot of similarities to the catholic church,so It is my first choice in terms of a new church home.

I looked at a couple of your posts. You are actually not going to be very at home in either the WELS or LCMS Lutheran synods. If you are looking to convert to Lutheranism with your particular views on female clergy and homosexuality your only real option in the US is the ELCA, which is considered to be out of communion with both the WELS and LCMS. Neither the WELS or LCMS ordain women, and neither support gay clergy or gay marriage. As a Lutheran LCMS, I have to go with the scriptures that say both are not allowed…This would be an example of Scripture’s authority trumping that of the ELCA governing council’s “new” traditions.

These issues along with the ELCA’s softer view on abortion are the biggest issues right now between the Major Lutheran Synods in the US. They also put the ELCA at major odds with the Catholic Church.

 

[franny50]

I just wanted to clarify a few things.I am prolife(unless the mothers life is in immediate danger)and am for civil rights for gays;housing,partner benfits etc.I do not advocate for homosexuals in the priesthood.Birth control is another issue,I believe is seperate from abortion.Condoms prevent not only pregnancy but in some cases Aids.You are right,I probably would fit in with the ELCA,and have already spoken to some members who seemed to feel I’d feel right at home.

 

[franny50]

P.S.You seemed to infer that I support gay marriage,when previously I stated I supported civil union,which would give gay couples some kind of legal protection,I believe it is up to individual churches to decide about gay marriage,and dont believe the state has the right to force any church to perform a ritual(marriage)contrary to their teachings.I recall reading in the bible that jesus said something about hating a particular sin,but loving the sinner.Civil Rights is an act of charity toward any minority population who has been discriminated against.Do the confessional churches support discrimination?

 

[dje101]

P.S.You seemed to infer that I support gay marriage,when previously I stated I supported civil union,which would give gay couples some kind of legal protection,I believe it is up to individual churches to decide about gay marriage,and dont believe the state has the right to force any church to perform a ritual(marriage)contrary to their teachings.I recall reading in the bible that jesus said something about hating a particular sin,but loving the sinner.Civil Rights is an act of charity toward any minority population who has been discriminated against.Do the confessional churches support discrimination?

Just FYI, I glanced at the thread and I think you are considering converting to Lutheranism, but since you still claim “Catholic” under your religion, I just thought that I’d point out that the Church teaches against civil unions.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

So, back on topic, I’ve heard that Lutherans believe Consubstantiation and that they don’t accept the pope. Are both of those true? Neither? One of 'em?

 

[mdrummer5]

-Lutherans believe that one is saved by faith alone. Catholics believes faith plus works.

• The Catholics believe that the tradition is authoritative. Protestants believe in sola scriptura (only the bible is authoritative)
  The Lutherans believe that the eucherist is symbolic. Catholics believe that it is the body of Christ.
  -Lutherans deny infant baptism while Catholics practice it.
• Catholic bibles have 7 extra books and the Protestant bibles have 66 books.
  -Lutherans deny purgatory.
  -Lutherans deny immaculet conception.
• I think Lutherans don’t see Mary as the “Queen of Heaven” and they don’t pray to her or the saints.

I’ve been wondering about the differences between Catholicism and other “versions” of Christianity lately… could someone clarify a couple of the above for me?

1. Faith alone? So does that mean that as long as I believe that Jesus was the messiah I get to go to heavn… that’s it? I don’t have to do “good deeds”? I can live however I want to (within reason) and not have to worry about judgment?
2. How do Lutherans view Jesus’ birth then if it was not immaculate conception?

 

[Alix1912]

I’ve been wondering about the differences between Catholicism and other “versions” of Christianity lately… could someone clarify a couple of the above for me?

1. Faith alone? So does that mean that as long as I believe that Jesus was the messiah I get to go to heavn… that’s it? I don’t have to do “good deeds”? I can live however I want to (within reason) and not have to worry about judgment?
2. How do Lutherans view Jesus’ birth then if it was not immaculate conception?

1st, the post you quoted by noobio is not in anyway a representation of Lutheran beliefs in fact almost every thing he listed was wrong. He has since apolgised on this thread.

The Faith Alone you are referencing is NOT a believe of the Lutheran Church. What you are refering to is the concept of “Once Saved always Saved”. Which is not a Lutheran believe.

When Catholics talk about the immaculate conception of Mary they are not talking about Jesus’s conception, but Mary’s. That she was concieved free from the stain of original sin so she would be ready to carry and bear Jesus.

This was my response previously posted responding to noobio’s completely error filled claims about Lutheranism.

Luther wrote that works without faith are meaningless, but that once you have faith you will naturally want to do good things and work for God. However the thought that one can work one’s way into heaven is wrong.

The LCMS believes that Communion IS a sacrament and is the Real Body and Blood of Christ.

The LCMS do recgonize and practice tradition…however traditions cannot contradict the Bible (ie indulgences as they were used in the 1500).

ALL Lutheran synods practice infant baptism. The Baptists do not believe in infant baptism.

The LCMS accept the extra books as important and historical and good to study, they just aren’t cannon

Luther actually believed in Purgatory. The modern synods choose not to speculate on how God handles souls who have been saved after death.

I’m not escatly sure where we are on the immaculate conception of Mary. I find no scriptural evidence either way and it honestly make no difference either way to me.

As to her being Queen of Heaven…same response as above. We do recognize the massively important role she played in Christianity. There is a Lutheran Rosary that includes the “Hail Mary”. We don’t pray to saints, but many LCMS churches celebrate All Saints Day, and many Lutheran Churches (espeically older ones) are named after Saints.

 

[Alix1912]

Just FYI, I glanced at the thread and I think you are considering converting to Lutheranism, but since you still claim “Catholic” under your religion, I just thought that I’d point out that the Church teaches against civil unions.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

So, back on topic, I’ve heard that Lutherans believe Consubstantiation and that they don’t accept the pope. Are both of those true? Neither? One of 'em?

LCMS condemns civil unions or any civil rights for homosexuals as well. Sorry but acting on homosexual urges is a choice, it is something someone can avoid doing if they want to. Being a specific sex, race, age is not.

Back on track…We do not accept the Primacy of the Pope. We do not believe he is infallible (though really this is kinda a mute point since he is only considered to be infallible by the Catholics when he speaks from the Throne of Saint Peter, which doesn’t happen very often). Now have the men who have held the position recently great and holy men…absolutely, are they probably more in tune with God and his will than I am…yes, as they should be as that IS kinda their job (they don;t have to clean the house, chase toddlers, make meals, go to a secular job etc.) Do we look at their writings as something good and of value to read…yes. We just don’t believe that the current structure of governance of the Catholic Church was ordained by Christ. It is a creation of man.

The Communion thing is this: Basically (at least for the LCMS) we believe that Communion becomes the Real Body and Blood of our Lord. How and why it retains the look and taste of Bread and Wine we do not speculate on and leave it as a mystery of faith.

 

[JonNC]

Hi, HN…you may want to revisit purgatory. JonNC provided a link to the CC/Lutheran dialogue…purgatory was in the discussion.

Hopefully, Jon will repost it here…from what I recall…ML believed on some kind of purgatory or purgation at the end of life, he did not just agree with the Catholic concept or understanding (as I recall). ML was also mainly against the practices or abuses attached to the belief, not against the concept.

usccb.org/seia/The-Hope-of-Eternal-Life.pdf

Jon

 

[hn160]

usccb.org/seia/The-Hope-of-Eternal-Life.pdf

Jon

JON

The LC-MS, WELS, and ELS, I don’t think took part in these talks. They never signed JDDJ.
Luther in Luther’s Works Volume 47, page 42 AE rejected purgatory:
Furthermore, how will your conscience bear the blasphemous fraud of purgatory, with which they also treacherously duped and falsely frightened all the world and appropriated almost all its property and splendor by lying and thievery?47 For with this they also completely extinguished that one and only comfort and trust in Christ and taught Christians to place their attention and expectation and reliance in the bequests which they trust will follow them.48 Whoever looks to and hopes in the bequests or works that follow him at death—as they taught and as they all did—must dismiss Christ from his mind and forget him. Therefore, if God had not especially preserved his own, in death they would have plunged unawares into hell’s abyss, together with the Jews and heathen. It is the same as when a person falls headlong from a high mountain; he thinks that he is treading on a solid pathway and then steps aside into the air and plunges down into the valley or the sea. Oh, what murderers of souls they are! Before the day of judgment no human heart will know what great murder they have committed on souls with their purgatory. Much less can the damage and the abominable blasphemy be estimated which they thereby have inflicted on faith and confidence in Christ. Yet there is no repentance for this or any end to it. Instead, they demand that you protect them and help defend them in it.