Lutheranism vs. Catholicism

[Swiss_Guy]

What it boils down to whether you want to agree to disagree. The Roman Church didn’t change anything in their view of Justification. The Lutherans who signed closed their eyes and held their nose and signed anyway.

Yep, but it was worded so that everyone could agree to disagree, meaning the Lutherans didn’t have to close their eyes and hold their noses. And who knows, maybe now the LWF believes justification is infused instead of solely imputed.

 

[valentino]

Valentino,

To briefly answer your question.I believe in full civil protections for gays,including civil union which would grant certain protection under the law.I believe some legal rights are important because sometimes there are children involved.I also believe in womens rights,although I am prolife.I am not for gay marriage because I think there are too many differing opinions between different churches.And its up to individual denominations whether or not they want to perform ceremonies.There are churches such as The ELCA,a more liberal Lutheran Church which not only ordains women,but also accepts gays into their congregation.For the record,I am heterosexual,but have had gay friends.

thanks for responding.I must assume you don’t agree with the bible concerning homosexuality and how can there be children involved when 2 men are living together.If you’re suggesting that they adopt a child you’re going off the page.2 men as a couple is already disallowed by God.Since u leave it up to church to decide if gay marriage should be allowed again I see u don’t rely on the bible for info. but the teachings of men.You’ve got no solid foundation if you don’t mind me saying so and you’re decisions are what you can be convinced of and which you decide seem logical.There is nothing wrong with having a gay friend(of course there are certain limitations).One of my best friends was gay but we never discussed the matter.I never knew what he did when we weren’t together but I considered it his business and it in no way affected me.

 

[valentino]

I am a LCMS Lutheran.

We do believe in the immaculate conception-however Mary REMAINING a virgin, we do not have that as a doctrine.
We do practice infant baptism.
We do not believe that Communion is symbolic-I do not know all of the correct terms however it is similar to Catholic but not trans-substantiation(sure I misspelled that word)
We do not pray to Saints nor the office of the Pope. However we do recognize many of the Saints. The LCMS does not have bishops like the ELCA either.
We do not believe in Purgatory…
At this time, this is all I can think of.

I know of a lot of things which Lutherans and other christian denominations don’t agree with the CC on but if you aren’t a real bible scholar how can you say the CC teaching is wrong?I realize that most people believe in a church do to some influence.(parents,girlfriend,friend,church is close by,people are friendly,ect.)Also most people accept their churches teaching if it doesn’t cause undo hardship in the life they find themselves in.For ex:we have 3 children and make $30,000 a yr.and we can’t afford more children so we can’t agree with the CC because it doesn’t allow birth control.I’ll finish by saying few non Catholics will ever take the time to find out why the CC teaches the things She does(IMO) BTW you don’t think the CC has certain laws just to give people a hard time do you?Do you believe that the CC says its alright to pray to Mary and the saints for some ulterior motive?What would be their point?

 

[Alix1912]

I know of a lot of things which Lutherans and other christian denominations don’t agree with the CC on but if you aren’t a real bible scholar how can you say the CC teaching is wrong?I realize that most people believe in a church do to some influence.(parents,girlfriend,friend,church is close by,people are friendly,ect.)Also most people accept their churches teaching if it doesn’t cause undo hardship in the life they find themselves in.For ex:we have 3 children and make $30,000 a yr.and we can’t afford more children so we can’t agree with the CC because it doesn’t allow birth control.I’ll finish by saying few non Catholics will ever take the time to find out why the CC teaches the things She does(IMO) BTW you don’t think the CC has certain laws just to give people a hard time do you?Do you believe that the CC says its alright to pray to Mary and the saints for some ulterior motive?What would be their point?

Wow…don’t derail the thread. This about the differences between the different Lutheran Synods, and the RCC. It was supposed to merely be a away of looking at the differences not claiming that people only believe things that don;t impact their lives. You are getting a little defensive. No where in Lutheran doctirne condemns the idea of asking saints for intercession, it’s just not a practice that we traditionally use much currently. Many of the Lutheran’s on this thread HAVE taken quite a bit of time to actually look at the teachings of the RCC or we would not be able to point out the differences. Just because we don’t agree on everything doesn’t mean we are Anti Catholic, Stupid, or uneducated. Calm down and relax.

 

[franny50]

Anyone who wants to find out what Lutherans believe should join christianforums.com
I have had the privledge of chatting with people from multiple denominations(both liberal and conservative)I have also posted a number of questions in both the LCMS/WELS forums and in the ELCA forum.Open your minds people.Catholics do not have a monopoly on salvation and are not “The True Church”.We are all part of The Body Of Christ!

 

[Alix1912]

Anyone who wants to find out what Lutherans believe should join christianforums.com
I have had the privledge of chatting with people from multiple denominations(both liberal and conservative)I have also posted a number of questions in both the LCMS/WELS forums and in the ELCA forum.Open your minds people.Catholics do not have a monopoly on salvation and are not “The True Church”.We are all part of The Body Of Christ!

Again with the thread derailing…

 

[JonNC]

What it boils down to whether you want to agree to disagree. The Roman Church didn’t change anything in their view of Justification. The Lutherans who signed closed their eyes and held their nose and signed anyway.

Let’s remember who felt the need to write a clarification. Based on that, there seems to be some angst on the Catholic side, as well.
But on this statement, I feel no need to hold my nose:

.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.

Jon

 

[joe370]

What’s the difference between these two?

I would say the quintessential difference between the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church is the fact that the members of the Catholic Church defer to the teaching authority of the leaders of the Catholic Church as their final authority vis-a-vis faith or morals, via the guidance of the Holy Spirit, (as was the case in the early church, prior to the codification of sacred scripture, the lutheran confessions, the catholic catechism etc…) - and each member of the Lutheran Church defer to their Lutheran catechism/confessions and sacred scripture as their final authority vis-a-vis faith or morals, via the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[joe370]

Anyone who wants to find out what Lutherans believe should join christianforums.com
I have had the privledge of chatting with people from multiple denominations(both liberal and conservative)I have also posted a number of questions in both the LCMS/WELS forums and in the ELCA forum.Open your minds people.Catholics do not have a monopoly on salvation and are not “The True Church”.We are all part of The Body Of Christ!

Wouldn’t it be more advantageous to go right to the authoritative source of Lutheranism, such as the Book of Concord - the Confessions of the Lutheran Church, which is, for Lutheran Christians, the final authority regarding the exposition of sacred scripture?

 

[joe370]

I am a LCMS Lutheran.

We do not pray to Saints nor the office of the Pope. However we do recognize many of the Saints.

Praying to those souls who made it to heaven is synonymous with asking those heavenly souls (all of which are much closer to the Trinity then anyone here on earth) - to pray for us here on earth.

Do Lutheran Christians ask their church Pastors and friends to pray for them? If so then why not ask our brothers and sisters in heaven to pray for us?

 

[JonNC]

Praying to those souls who made it to heaven is synonymous with asking those heavenly souls (all of which are much closer to the Trinity then anyone here on earth) - to pray for us here on earth.

Do Lutheran Christians ask their church Pastors and friends to pray for them? If so then why not ask our brothers and sisters in heaven to pray for us?

First, Joe, thanks for your very well said statements in the 2 previous posts. As I’ve come to expect from you, your words are charitable and not judgemental. Again, thank you, my brother.

To answer your question, the confessions make this three-point observation about invocation of the saints: that there is no command, promise, or example in scripture for the practice. That’s not to say that the saints don’t pray for us, as we know they do, and it is quite reasonable for us to ask God to hear the prayers of His saints, just as we ask Him to hear our prayers and the prayers of others.

In my view, the example of invocation both east and west ought to make us pause in our criticism of the practice, as should the lack of scriptural condemnation of it.
We should also keep in mind that many millions of Christians over time have received great comfort, a comfort I can only assume comes for the mercy of God.

Jon

 

[franny50]

To Joe 370:

Yes I am currently reading the book of Concord online,but would not have been aware of what to read had I not posted in The Lutheran forum on christianforums.com. Members from both the ElCA and the LCMS have posted a number of links for me as well as responding to my many questions.Some of the members who converted from catholocism shared their insights and experiences.

 

[ThomasDoubter]

I had always assumed that although some core beliefs were different, the Lutheran Church was maybe a little more compatible with Catholicism than other protestant denominations. But here in Sweden, the Lutheran Church appears to be influenced by more secular authorities. Take this for example:-

*The Governing Body of the Church of Sweden proposes that the Church of Sweden General Synod should adopt an order of marriage that allows two people of the same sex to contract a marriage in the church. In this way the Church of Sweden will adapt its teaching to the values that constitute the majority view in the Swedish parliament (Riksdagen).

This is actually not surprising. The Church of Sweden is permeated by the same political parties that constitute the parliament. The majority of the members of the Church of Sweden Governing Body have party labels, as have those who are members of the Church of Sweden General Synod, and they usually follow their party lines on decisive issues. Theology has been transformed into an ideology and the church’s own institutions happily provide theological post-constructions to the latest opinions and whims of the world.

—Yngve Kalin is Chairman of the Church Coalition for the Bible and the Confession. *

Adapt it’s teaching to the majority view in the Riksdagen? Since when did the majority view take precedence over Scripture? How has the church allowed itself to become so political?

 

[gcnuss]

I had always assumed that although some core beliefs were different, the Lutheran Church was maybe a little more compatible with Catholicism than other protestant denominations. But here in Sweden, the Lutheran Church appears to be influenced by more secular authorities. Take this for example:-

*The Governing Body of the Church of Sweden proposes that the Church of Sweden General Synod should adopt an order of marriage that allows two people of the same sex to contract a marriage in the church. In this way the Church of Sweden will adapt its teaching to the values that constitute the majority view in the Swedish parliament (Riksdagen).

This is actually not surprising. The Church of Sweden is permeated by the same political parties that constitute the parliament. The majority of the members of the Church of Sweden Governing Body have party labels, as have those who are members of the Church of Sweden General Synod, and they usually follow their party lines on decisive issues. Theology has been transformed into an ideology and the church’s own institutions happily provide theological post-constructions to the latest opinions and whims of the world.

—Yngve Kalin is Chairman of the Church Coalition for the Bible and the Confession. *

Adapt it’s teaching to the majority view in the Riksdagen? Since when did the majority view take precedence over Scripture? How has the church allowed itself to become so political?

Therein lies the problem of a state church. I can think of no stronger argument for the separation of church and state. Political winds may blow thither and yon but they should not carry the church with them, nor should the church allow itself to be drawn into the latest secular fads.

 

[joe370]

To Joe 370:

Yes I am currently reading the book of Concord online,but would not have been aware of what to read had I not posted in The Lutheran forum on christianforums.com. Members from both the ElCA and the LCMS have posted a number of links for me as well as responding to my many questions.Some of the members who converted from catholocism shared their insights and experiences.

That makes good sense. With the exception of converting from catholicism. LOL…

 

[joe370]

Hey Jon…

JonNC;7884242]First, Joe, thanks for your very well said statements in the 2 previous posts. As I’ve come to expect from you, your words are charitable and not judgemental. Again, thank you, my brother.

Thanks for the kind words and thanks for your never ending words of charity as well brother!

To answer your question, the confessions make this three-point observation about invocation of the saints: that there is no command, promise, or example in scripture for the practice. That’s not to say that the saints don’t pray for us, as we know they do, and it is quite reasonable for us to ask God to hear the prayers of His saints, just as we ask Him to hear our prayers and the prayers of others.

Well, not all Lutheran Christians (certain folks in my family for example) - agree with you but I knew you and I would agree on this theological point. It just seems too reasonable.

n my view, the example of invocation both east and west ought to make us pause in our criticism of the practice, as should the lack of scriptural condemnation of it.
We should also keep in mind that many millions of Christians over time have received great comfort, a comfort I can only assume comes for the mercy of God.

Well said Jon and I totally agree with that logic. Jesus’ mercy is unfathomable in my estimation!

 

[JonNC]

Hey Jon…

Well, not all Lutheran Christians (certain folks in my family for example) - agree with you but I knew you and I would agree on this theological point. It just seems too reasonable.

Hi Joe,
For the enlightenment of those Lutherans who don’t:

Besides, we also grant that the angels pray for us. For there is a testimony in Zech. 1:12, where an angel prays: O Lord of hosts, how long wilt Thou not have mercy on 9] Jerusalem? **Although concerning the saints we concede that, just as, when alive, they pray for the Church universal in general, so in heaven they pray for the Church in general, **albeit no testimony concerning the praying of the dead is extant in the Scriptures, except the dream taken from the Second Book of Maccabees, 15:14.

-Apology of the Augsburg Confession

Just from the point of logic, if we as Lutheran concede (I might use the word proclaim) that the saints in Heaven pray for the Church universal, why would it not be reasonable to ask God to listen to their prayers, just as we do every week in The Prayer of the Church, when we ask that God “hear our prayers”? Are we not asking God then to hear the prayers of other Christians?
From a Lutheran standpoint, this makes sense in light of the confessions. Maybe other Lutherans here can correct me if I’m wrong, or confirm if I’m right.

Jon

 

[joe370]

Hey Jon…

JonNC;7887437]Hi Joe,
For the enlightenment of those Lutherans who don’t:

Besides, we also grant that the angels pray for us. For there is a testimony in Zech. 1:12, where an angel prays: O Lord of hosts, how long wilt Thou not have mercy on 9] Jerusalem? Although concerning the saints we concede that, just as, when alive, they pray for the Church universal in general, so in heaven they pray for the Church in general, albeit no testimony concerning the praying of the dead is extant in the Scriptures, except the dream taken from the Second Book of Maccabees, 15:14.

-Apology of the Augsburg Confession

I had no idea that the preceding was in the Augsburg Confession. My niece and her husband do not embrace the book of Maccabees, but they should if the Augsburg Confession does - correct?

Just from the point of logic, if we as Lutheran concede (I might use the word proclaim) that the saints in Heaven pray for the Church universal, why would it not be reasonable to ask God to listen to their prayers, just as we do every week in The Prayer of the Church, when we ask that God “hear our prayers”? Are we not asking God then to hear the prayers of other Christians?
From a Lutheran standpoint, this makes sense in light of the confessions. Maybe other Lutherans here can correct me if I’m wrong, or confirm if I’m right.

I will be curious to hear what other Lutherans have to say on the matter as well.

 

[wisdomseeker]

What’s the difference between these two?

For one, if you are looking for the Truth, it can only be found in teh CC. The CC was found by the Master Himself 2000 years ago. lutherans found about 500 years ago by a rebellious man. Something that ST Paul warned about. stay away from rebellious man.

Another thing is that there is only one Church and there is the CC. therefore only one option. Teh CC is the one where everybody should be in.

The CC has hte witnesses of hte SAints. we have Holy Mary as our mother and intercessor of the Church.

We have the priesthood that with the Word of God can transusbitiate the wine into the Blood of Christ. no other can. and i am not talkign about the EO here.

Jesus stablished a Kingdom here on earth. which Church has the characteristic of a Kingdom here on earth?

like the Jews did one time, we celebrate the Covenant stablished by Christ. no other has this understanding.

 

[IowaJay]

Hey Jon…

I had no idea that the preceding was in the Augsburg Confession. My niece and her husband do not embrace the book of Maccabees, but they should if the Augsburg Confession does - correct?

I will be curious to hear what other Lutherans have to say on the matter as well.

• The Book of Concord, which contains the only “official” writings of the Lutheran Church, does not define the canon of the Bible anywhere. The citation to Maccabbees in the Augsburg Confession does not necessarily mandate a belief in its canonical status, but to me, it indicates that Lutherans should believe that the deuterocanonicals are much more than merely ancient books. An interesting coincidence to your observation is that I just was reading a tract from Luther written in the 1530s (more than a decade after the Reformation) about how to pray and he favorably cited Sirach.
• I can affirm Jon’s comment about asking God to listen to the prayers of the saints.