Lutherans and the Papacy

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EvangelCatholic

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Much is discussed about “Catholic bashing” like all Protestants are extremely anti-catholic. Personally, I never hear that kind of talk among Lutherans. In-fact in our liturgical calendar, a holy day is devoted to Pope John 23rd [6/3]. Lutherans fell in love with Benedict and had a very high regard for John Paul 2nd. Our saint days include St Gregory [3/12].

Actually, I am not alone among Lutherans to view the Vatican as our spiritual home; like estranged cousins we want unity among of Children of God.

But we can not abide the infallibility issue; it has held back Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans. Is it possible that the dogma of papal infallibility will be revised?

BTW, Lutherans are quite taken by Francis. This leader has the potential to lead the Church into Vatican 3 👍
 
CruceSignati said:
Not quite sure about that one…🤷
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I pray for my Catholic friends that if there is a Vatican III, that it has nothing to do with the “spirit of Vatican II.” Vatican II was fine, but it that seemed to me that many used it as a excuse to promulgate their own interpretations.
 
benjohnson said:
I pray for my Catholic friends that if there is a Vatican III, that it has nothing to do with the **“spirit of Vatican II.” **Vatican II was fine, but it that seemed to me that many used it as a excuse to promulgate their own interpretations.
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Oh! Vatican 2 brought the Catholic Church much closer to the Lutheran Church. In-fact, much of the liturgy, moving the altar away from the wall Lutherans learned from John23. Some of you LCMS people puzzle me!
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Much is discussed about “Catholic bashing” like all Protestants are extremely anti-catholic. Personally, I never hear that kind of talk among Lutherans. In-fact in our liturgical calendar, a holy day is devoted to Pope John 23rd [6/3]. Lutherans fell in love with Benedict and had a very high regard for John Paul 2nd. Our saint days include St Gregory [3/12].

Actually, I am not alone among Lutherans to view the Vatican as our spiritual home; like estranged cousins we want unity among of Children of God.

But we can not abide the infallibility issue; it has held back Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans. Is it possible that the dogma of papal infallibility will be revised?

BTW, Lutherans are quite taken by Francis. This leader has the potential to lead the Church into Vatican 3 👍
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This is really interesting to know. Thank you for sharing. I had no idea Lutherans felt that way (except the part about the papacy and infallibility.) Do you happen to know if this is a universal train of thought, or more particular to certain countries?

As for the possibility of change in the doctrine of infallibility changing any time soon, I’m inclined to guess that’s a no. Psssst, I do hear you though.
 
marimagi said:
This is really interesting to know. Thank you for sharing. I had no idea Lutherans felt that way (except the part about the papacy and infallibility.) Do you happen to know if this is a universal train of thought, or more particular to certain countries?

As for the possibility of change in the doctrine of infallibility changing any time soon, I’m inclined to guess that’s a no. Psssst, I do hear you though.
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The presiding bishop of the ELCA confers with every pope; as do the archbishops in Europe. Benedict actually referred to the Augsburg Confession as Catholic. The simplicity and humbleness of Francis is breathtaking. Like the saint of Assisi, my prayer is that Pope Francis cares deeply for the poor and love of all mankind.

Lutherans are basically the same worldwide.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
The presiding bishop of the ELCA confers with every pope; as do the archbishops in Europe. Benedict actually referred to the Augsburg Confession as Catholic. The simplicity and humbleness of Francis is breathtaking. Like the saint of Assisi, my prayer is that Pope Francis cares deeply for the poor and love of all mankind.

Lutherans are basically the same worldwide.
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Wow, I had no idea. Thank you so much for sharing this!

Yes, Pope Francis is amazing isn’t he?
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Much is discussed about “Catholic bashing” like all Protestants are extremely anti-catholic. Personally, I never hear that kind of talk among Lutherans. In-fact in our liturgical calendar, a holy day is devoted to Pope John 23rd [6/3]. Lutherans fell in love with Benedict and had a very high regard for John Paul 2nd. Our saint days include St Gregory [3/12].

Actually, I am not alone among Lutherans to view the Vatican as our spiritual home; like estranged cousins we want unity among of Children of God.
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Yes, Lutherans are very cordial, and friendly with Catholics. They do not promote the lies of Anti-Catholicism. That usually happens with the evangelicals. The problem we have with the Lutheran church is that we see Martin Luther as the man who caused the problem of protestantism.
EvangelCatholic said:
Is it possible that the dogma of papal infallibility will be revised?
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No. Papal infallibility is a dogma. And a dogma can not be changed. There can be no reunification with any church who does not accept it.
 
Steveabrous said:
Yes, Lutherans are very cordial, and friendly with Catholics. They do not promote the lies of Anti-Catholicism. That usually happens with the evangelicals. The problem we have with the Lutheran church is that we see Martin Luther as the man who caused the problem of protestantism.

No. Papal infallibility is a dogma. And a dogma can not be changed. There can be no reunification with any church who does not accept it.
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But with all due respect, our pope at the time was quite corrupt.
 
marimagi said:
But with all due respect, our pope at the time was quite corrupt.
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Papal infallibility was not “Made up” at the first Vatican council. It was defined. that means it has always been the case . It is absolute truth that is accepted by every bishop in the Catholic church.

Dogma means it is absolutely true. We can no more deny the truth of Papal infallibilty then we can accpet Homosexual marraige or abortion.

Just because some people don’t like it. That’s too bad.
 
marimagi said:
But with all due respect, our pope at the time was quite corrupt.
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Ironically, Papal infallibility means that he “can” be infallible on matters of faith and morals. It does not mean he will not be corrupt.
 
Steveabrous said:
Papal infallibility was not “Made up” at the first Vatican council. It was defined. that means it has always been the case . It is absolute truth that is accepted by every bishop in the Catholic church.

Dogma means it is absolutely true. We can no more deny the truth of Papal infallibilty then we can accpet Homosexual marraige or abortion.

Just because some people don’t like it. That’s too bad.
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I know what is accepted. But, the pope ruling/guiding the Church during the time of the Reformation, was basically a mafioso. He was not a good man, and it is understandable why Luther, a devout Catholic, was disturbed by what was going on in the Church at the time. It was never his intention to separate from the Catholic Church either by the way. He wanted to address the corruption and provoke change. If the pope had been honest enough to acknowledge that his practices were practically criminal, the Reformation would not have happened (at least under Luther.)

It is Church Doctrine that in matters of Faith, the popes have never erred. But, when you look at the character of some (not by any means, recent) popes, it is hard to believe that they were capable of being guided by the Holy Spirit. But then again, all things are possible with God. I am not going to ignore the fact however, that some of our Catholic history is not pretty.
 
It would be far to embarressing to say “I guess we were wrong on papal infallibility and universal jurisdication all along.” The roman catholic church will never concede its supremecy and thus orthodoxy will never accept Roman catholicism.
 
marimagi said:
I know what is accepted. But, the pope ruling/guiding the Church during the time of the Reformation, was basically a mafioso. He was not a good man, and it is understandable why Luther, a devout Catholic, was disturbed by what was going on in the Church at the time. It was never his intention to separate for the Catholic Church either by the way. He wanted to address the corruption and provoke change. If the pope had been honest enough to acknowledge that his practices were practically criminal, the Reformation would not have happened (at least under Luther.)

It is Church Doctrine that in matters of Faith, the popes have never erred. But, when you look at the character of some (not by any means, recent) popes, it is hard to believe that they were capable of being guided by the Holy Spirit. But then again, all things are possible with God. I am not going to ignore the fact however, that some of our Catholic history is not pretty.
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O.k Luther was around in the 16th century. Papal infallibilty was define in the 19th century. The two are unrelated. Also the abuses that Luther objected to were local not church wide and they were addressed, but Luther didn’t care because he objected to Catholic doctrine. are u saying you agree with him on doctrine

39 books in the OT
no purgatory
no good works
no indulgences?
 
Steveabrous said:
O.k Luther was around in the 16th century. Papal infallibilty was define in the 19th century. The two are unrelated. Also the abuses that Luther objected to were local not church wide and they were addressed, but Luther didn’t care because he objected to Catholic doctrine. are u saying you agree with him on doctrine

39 books in the OT
no purgatory
no good works
no indulgences?
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Papal infallibilty was a belief all along. However, the Church did need to deal with the problem of popes whose behaviors were indefensible. And so, it was defined that a pope as a person, could be fallible; even corrupt. But in matters of Faith, no pope had ever erred.

The problems in the Church at the time of Luther were indeed widespread throughout Europe and were not addressed during Luther’s time by a long shot.

Luther objected to the abuses in the Church at the time, which were indead, severe. Paying for indulgences, was practically a shake-down in today’s terms. Luther really loved the Church, and never intended when challenging the corrupt practices, to eventually break-away from the Catholic Church.

I understand why Luther protested what he did. I understand why he ultimately started a movement. He could have not done so either, if people were not fed up.

Our popes in the modern era, are nothing like the popes which unfortunately took power during Luther’s time. The Church does not deny the facts of history, and admits that it was a very unfortunate reality. I guess to answer your question, if I lived in Luther’s time, I would have been quite disturbed by the Catholic Church’s actions, and may have wanted to break away from the corruption of the time if given the chance.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
It would be far to embarressing to say “I guess we were wrong on papal infallibility and universal jurisdication all along.” The roman catholic church will never concede its supremecy and thus orthodoxy will never accept Roman catholicism.
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You have to remember that the Catholic Church is more than just the the Roman rite of the Church. We have a rich Eastern presence. The Church isn’t ‘Roman’, it is Catholic.
 
Does anyone think that Pope Francis will reach out to Lutherans like Benedict did?
 
bzkoss236 said:
You have to remember that the Catholic Church is more than just the the Roman rite of the Church. We have a rich Eastern presence. The Church isn’t ‘Roman’, it is Catholic.
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Sometimes it feels like we Eastern Catholics are trotted-out for show. This is one of those times. I mean I just don’t see what your point is … Vatican I didn’t say that Papal Infallibility and Universal Ordinary Jurisdiction were things that only the Latin Catholics had to believe and not the Eastern Catholics.

🤷
 
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