Lutherans and the Papacy

[bzkoss236]

Sometimes it feels like we Eastern Catholics are trotted-out for show. This is one of those times. I mean I just don’t see what your point is … Vatican I didn’t say that Papal Infallibility and Universal Ordinary Jurisdiction were things that only the Latin Catholics had to believe and not the Eastern Catholics.

It just bugs me when people refer to the whole Catholic Church as the Roman Catholic Church, because it is inaccurate and incorrect. I feel too many people either disregard or ignore our Eastern Catholic brothers.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

You have to remember that the Catholic Church is more than just the the Roman rite of the Church. We have a rich Eastern presence. The Church isn’t ‘Roman’, it is Catholic.

I know that exists but since they all bend the knee to the authority of rome and are effectively under rome so I must ask, why is this distinction an actual distinction? The Pope is the Metropolitan, it seems, over every other bishop despite the technical existence of different rites.

 

[mlz]

The presiding bishop of the ELCA confers with every pope; as do the archbishops in Europe. Benedict actually referred to the Augsburg Confession as Catholic. The simplicity and humbleness of Francis is breathtaking. Like the saint of Assisi, my prayer is that Pope Francis cares deeply for the poor and love of all mankind.

Lutherans are basically the same worldwide.

Your last statement I would disagree with as I use to be
Lutheran- ELCA and found many differences between not only synods but churches as well. The ELCA is very far away from teaching on abortion and same sex marraige.
mlz

 

[Peter_J]

I know that exists but since they all bend the knee to the authority of rome and are effectively under rome so I must ask, why is this distinction an actual distinction? The Pope is the Metropolitan, it seems, over every other bishop despite the technical existence of different rites.

The different rites is a point, but it isn’t the main point here.

There are several Western rites, and there are several Eastern rites. However, the Western rites are all used by the Latin Church, whereas the Eastern rites are used by the various Eastern Catholic Churches. (14 of those churches all use the Byzantine Rite, but we are still 14 different sui iuris churches.)

 

[bzkoss236]

I know that exists but since they all bend the knee to the authority of rome and are effectively under rome so I must ask, why is this distinction an actual distinction? The Pope is the Metropolitan, it seems, over every other bishop despite the technical existence of different rites.

Because Rome does not define the Catholic Church. Rome just happens to be the central location of the Church where the Pope resides. They submit to the authority of the Pope, the Holy Spirit, and the Magisterium of the Church, not the authority of Rome. That is why it is a distinction. You don’t say that the Unites States submits to the authority of Washington DC, they submit to the authority of the Government and the President.

 

[rfournier103]

Much is discussed about “Catholic bashing” like all Protestants are extremely anti-catholic. Personally, I never hear that kind of talk among Lutherans. In-fact in our liturgical calendar, a holy day is devoted to Pope John 23rd [6/3]. Lutherans fell in love with Benedict and had a very high regard for John Paul 2nd. Our saint days include St Gregory [3/12].

Actually, I am not alone among Lutherans to view the Vatican as our spiritual home; like estranged cousins we want unity among of Children of God.

But we can not abide the infallibility issue; it has held back Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans. Is it possible that the dogma of papal infallibility will be revised?

BTW, Lutherans are quite taken by Francis. This leader has the potential to lead the Church into Vatican 3

For what reason do we need a third Vatican Council?

The dogma of Papal Infallibility is in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error “when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church”. (from the 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia and the First Vatican Council).

As far as I know, this “Infallibility” only applies to the “Devine Teaching Office,” in that the Pope cannot teach in error. In other words, the Church’s theological teachings won’t be wrong.

I put my trust in the Church to interpet the Word, and trust that the Church won’t be wrong. I would also like to think that that anyone elected as Supreme Pontiff should know what he’s talking about and would “get it right.”

I pray for my Catholic friends that if there is a Vatican III, that it has nothing to do with the “spirit of Vatican II.” Vatican II was fine, but it that seemed to me that many used it as a excuse to promulgate their own interpretations.

I just got a hardcover copy of the Documents of Vatican II (paid an arm and a leg for it), and it is a fascinating book! The edition I got has commentary after each section (a response, if you will) from Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant authorities. VERY insightful… I think ANY Christian would be well served to at least skim this book. You might be surprised at what you find in there. I know I was…

It would be far to embarressing to say “I guess we were wrong on papal infallibility and universal jurisdication all along.” The roman catholic church will never concede its supremecy and thus orthodoxy will never accept Roman catholicism.

That’s sad, but I am afraid you’re correct. Someone would have to admit they were off-base about something… We humans aren’t good at that. However, I do think somehow/some way there could be some kind of merger that would be acceptable to both sides. As a radical example; if the Greek Patriarch were elected the next Roman Pontiff, bringing both the Greeks and the Romans under one umbrella, and merging the two lineages… (I know… radical…)

(Luther) objected to Catholic doctrine.

39 books in the OT
no purgatory
no good works
no indulgences?

These ARE sticking issues between Catholics and Lutherans… How/could there be any way Lutherans accept these? Or even consider these? I think relations between Catholics and Lutherans are better now than ever, and that makes me think there can at least be dialogue…

Does anyone think that Pope Francis will reach out to Lutherans like Benedict did?

I think so! His Holiness seems to be good at that. Did you know that the word “pontiff” can be interpeted as “bridge-builder?”

It just bugs me when people refer to the whole Catholic Church as the Roman Catholic Church, because it is inaccurate and incorrect. I feel too many people either disregard or ignore our Eastern Catholic brothers.

I whole-heartedly agree. There are Latin Catholics, and Eastern Catholics. I practice the “Roman Rite.” “Roman Catholic” is a term that sprang up and I don’t think it is going away anytime soon… There are worse things…

 

[rfournier103]

You have to remember that the Catholic Church is more than just the the Roman rite of the Church. We have a rich Eastern presence. The Church isn’t ‘Roman’, it is Catholic.

I know that exists but since they all bend the knee to the authority of rome and are effectively under rome so I must ask, why is this distinction an actual distinction? The Pope is the Metropolitan, it seems, over every other bishop despite the technical existence of different rites.

Philo… The reason the Pope/Bishop of Rome/Patriarch of the West/Supreme Pontiff/etc… is first over every other Bishop is because he is the successor to Peter’s Office. Peter was first among the Apostles, and therefore, Pope Francis (the CURRENT holder of Peter’s Office) is first among the Bishops (the CURRENT Apostles).

I love that there are other Rites, and I am very curious about many of them. The Ambrosian Rite, in particular.

The Ambrosian Rite is found mainly in Milan, Italy. I am a Latin Catholic of the Roman Rite, and they are Latin Catholics of the Ambrosian Rite. Popes Pius XI and Paul VI themselves were of the Ambrosian Rite by virtue of being Archbishops of Milan prior to becoming the Pope.

Even though they were of a different “Rite,” they were both subject to Papal Authority, and in fact became Popes themselves.

catholicworldreport.com/Item/1606/unity_of_faith_in_a_diversity_of_traditions.aspx

I think Christ wants us all to be “One Body in Christ.” Christ left Peter to “Tend My sheep” (John 21:16). If you look at John 21, Christ left Peter in charge of His disciples; so we have one shepherd until Jesus returns. There are many ways to glorify God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit while remaining in the same flock under one shepherd, and I look forward to the day when we are all truly “One Body.”

God bless!

 

[marimagi]

Rfournier,

Really good posts. Thank you.

 

[JonNC]

O.k Luther was around in the 16th century. Papal infallibilty was define in the 19th century. The two are unrelated. Also the abuses that Luther objected to were local not church wide and they were addressed, but Luther didn’t care because he objected to Catholic doctrine. are u saying you agree with him on doctrine

39 books in the OT
no purgatory
no good works
no indulgences?

I’d like to comment on these 4.

On the OT canon; there is no doctrinal statement regarding the canon. IOW, the Lutheran Confessions technically leave it open. The reformers took the side often expressed throughout the history that the DC’s were of disputed canonicity, disputed even at Trent itself. As a result we treat the DC’s in that way - valuable, important, but disputed.

No Purgatory: the confessions dispute with Purgatory is not a dispute regarding the necessity for cleansing prior to entering Heaven, but of the idea of an intermediate state/place. Even more of a problem for the reformers was the growth of what they considered abuses indulgences, private masses, etc. A modern treatment of the issue between Catholics and Lutherans can be found:
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/upload/The-Hope-of-Eternal-Life1.pdf

On “no good works”. I know, short hand, but it implies that Lutherans reject good works, and that is simply not the case. Good works are required of all the regenerate, but good works do not merit grace. From the Lutheran Confessions:

Article XX: Of Good Works.

1] Our teachers are falsely accused of forbidding Good Works. 2] For their published writings on the Ten Commandments, and others of like import, bear witness that they have taught to good purpose concerning all estates and duties of life, as to what estates of life and what works in every calling be pleasing to God. 3] Concerning these things preachers heretofore taught but little, and urged only childish and needless works, as particular holy-days, particular fasts, brotherhoods, pilgrimages, services in honor of saints, the use of rosaries, monasticism, and such like. 4] Since our adversaries have been admonished of these things, they are now unlearning them, and do not preach these unprofitable works as heretofore. 5] Besides, they begin to mention faith, of which there was heretofore marvelous silence. 6] They teach that we are justified not by works only, but they conjoin faith and works, and say that we are justified by faith and works. 7] This doctrine is more tolerable than the former one, and can afford more consolation than their old doctrine.

and…

Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

Failure to do good works is sin, and repeated, unrepented sin can lead to loss of saving faith.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Your last statement I would disagree with as I use to be
Lutheran- ELCA and found many differences between not only synods but churches as well. The ELCA is very far away from teaching on abortion and same sex marraige.
mlz

What I meant is that Lutherans worship alike. For example the eucharistic chants & hymns are nearly identical worldwide. Here’s a Swedish Mass that any American Lutheran could immediately recognize the music. youtube.com/watch?v=6s2xPTCsSg8 All Lutherans regard the Augsburg Confession as the definitive understanding of Scripture and tradition, etc. Social teachings may, in-fact, differ slightly.

 

[JonNC]

What I meant is that Lutherans worship alike. For example the eucharistic chants & hymns are nearly identical worldwide. Here’s a Swedish Mass that any American Lutheran could immediately recognize the music. youtube.com/watch?v=6s2xPTCsSg8 All Lutherans regard the Augsburg Confession as the definitive understanding of Scripture and tradition, etc. Social teachings may, in-fact, differ slightly.

This is true. A Lutheran can pretty much know what to expect at any Lutheran mass in any language.

Along with Augsburg, I would add at least the Small Catechism and perhaps the Apology of the Augsburg Confession.

On social issues, the differences can in fact be stark. For example, on the HHS mandate, the LCMS has been extremely vocal in its opposition to government requiring abortion and abortion-related drugs and activities be covered in health care plans, even against the religious beliefs of the plan provider. AFAIK, the ELCA does not oppose it.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

This is true. A Lutheran can pretty much know what to expect at any Lutheran mass in any language.

Along with Augsburg, I would add at least the Small Catechism and perhaps the Apology of the Augsburg Confession.

On social issues, the differences can in fact be stark. For example, on the HHS mandate, the LCMS has been extremely vocal in its opposition to government requiring abortion and abortion-related drugs and activities be covered in health care plans, even against the religious beliefs of the plan provider. AFAIK, the ELCA does not oppose it.

Jon

Yes, because Lutherans have a bit more freedom to differ whereas Catholics have to tow the line more. All Lutherans teach that abortions are wrong but some Lutherans acknowledge that a forcible rape or life threatening pregnancy may require an abortion.

 

[mlz]

Yes, because Lutherans have a bit more freedom to differ whereas Catholics have to tow the line more. All Lutherans teach that abortions are wrong but some Lutherans acknowledge that a forcible rape or life threatening pregnancy may require an abortion.

Again, I’ve heard different from what you are stating as to abortion. Our ELCA pastor argued with my husband about a woman’s right to choose. I’ve visited with other ELCA members with similar views( and not abortion under certain circumstances- not o
In the ELCA where my husband is still a member and why I left. As to liturgy being similar, yes, but then I’m not surprised about that- Luther brought that from his Catholic upbringing.

mlz

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Again, I’ve heard different from what you are stating as to abortion. Our ELCA pastor argued with my husband about a woman’s right to choose. I’ve visited with other ELCA members with similar views( and not abortion under certain circumstances- not o
In the ELCA where my husband is still a member and why I left. As to liturgy being similar, yes, but then I’m not surprised about that- Luther brought that from his Catholic upbringing.

mlz

Keep in mind that many Roman Catholics get abortions. It is an example of ignoring the official teachings of the Church.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Because Rome does not define the Catholic Church. Rome just happens to be the central location of the Church where the Pope resides. They submit to the authority of the Pope, the Holy Spirit, and the Magisterium of the Church, not the authority of Rome. That is why it is a distinction. You don’t say that the Unites States submits to the authority of Washington DC, they submit to the authority of the Government and the President.

Catholicity does not flow out from rome? Maybe we can unite after all. Although since the pope is virtually the only one who can define doctrine for the church I find that statement a little unbelievable.

 

[rfournier103]

Rfournier,

Really good posts. Thank you.

Thank you. I appreciate the compliment.

 

[rfournier103]

Catholicity does not flow out from rome? Maybe we can unite after all. Although since the pope is virtually the only one who can define doctrine for the church I find that statement a little unbelievable.

It is not the city that carries the weight, so to speak; it’s the office. In ancient times, Rome was the center of the civilized world, and what better location to govern the Universal Church from than Rome.

St. Peter went there to spread the Word/Gospel, and therefore his successors preach/teach from there as well.

May I ask exactly why the fact that the Universal Church’s “central location” is so important to you? EVERY organization has (or should have) a “headquarters” somewhere, shouldn’t they? It lends itself to stability.

 

[rfournier103]

Keep in mind that many Roman Catholics get abortions. It is an example of ignoring the official teachings of the Church.

That darned free-will… Sad, but true. That doesn’t mean that the official teaching of the Church is wrong.

 

[JonNC]

That darned free-will… Sad, but true. That doesn’t mean that the official teaching of the Church is wrong.

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

It is not the city that carries the weight, so to speak; it’s the office.

True, but not particularly helpful to the conversation, imo.

When I say, for example, that I’m “in communion with Rome” I trust that everyone understands that I mean in communion with Pope Francis, not the dirt, grass, cement etc that is literally Rome.