Lutherans and the Papacy

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IgnatianPhilo said:
The initial criticism to me was that I was wrong to call all catholics roman Catholic. That is that there are other catholics of other rites. I concede this obviously but I see no reason to say that these are outside of the Roman catholic church when ultimately they are all under the roman pope and derive their catholicity from him.
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Thing is, there actually is no “Roman Church”. What you’re talking about here is the Roman Communion.
 
marimagi said:
Okay, this is totally off topic (in a way.)

I have been following this thread and have found it very interesting. But something that has been bothering me since I joined this site, is all the arguing about the correctness of this or that religious perspective.

Recently, I found out that a very dear friend has a very serious form of brain cancer. She is a young mother with a young child and I have been determined that if ever there was cause for a miracle, this one is warranted.

My friend is not Catholic, but she loves God dearly. Among other interventions, I decided to ask the Carmelite nuns in my area, to pray for her. I wrote them a letter explaining the situation. I also told them that my friend is not Catholic.

This evening, I received a beautiful, handwritten letter from the Sisters. Of course they will pray! Of course they will ask for a miracle! There was no mention of the fact that my friend is not Catholic, or that she should convert if she wants their prayers or God’s assistance. They said it saddened them to hear my friend’s story and they will pray and pray and pray.

Theology is one thing, but when the pain hits the fan so to speak, it is about us reaching out to Our Lord with all our hearts and souls and will and mind. By all means, keep the debate alive. There is nothing wrong with convictions and sharing our beliefs and their foundations with others. But let’s also not forget to remember that we are all God’s children in the end.
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I’ll second EvangelCatholic’s “👍”. Quite frankly, one of the things that bothers me about us Catholics is how gung-ho we can be about wanting non-Catholics, even Orthodox, to convert to Catholicism. (Although, to be fair, when I participate on an Orthodox forum, I’m bothered by how much they want everyone to convert to Orthodoxy.)
 
Peter_J said:
I’ll second EvangelCatholic’s “👍”. Quite frankly, one of the things that bothers me about us Catholics is how gung-ho we can be about wanting non-Catholics, even Orthodox, to convert to Catholicism. (Although, to be fair, when I participate on an Orthodox forum, I’m bothered by how much they want everyone to convert to Orthodoxy.)
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I think that “gung-ho” enthusiasm applies to most Christian groups. Not that it is wrong. But sometimes the degree of vitriol can be very discouraging if fellow Christians are ridiculed or condemned.
 
mlz said:
ajecphotos;10876064:
I use to feel there was no problem prior to becoming Catholic but now I understand why. It is clearly stated by the Church so I don’t understand why those who are Catholic aren’t backing me on this?!

mlz
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I will back you up, it is Church teaching but alas we all want different flavored cofees nowadays :rolleyes:
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ufamtobie said:
EvangelCatholic,

It is good to hear that you are not alone among Lutherans and view the Vatican as your Spiritual Home, but it should be the Lutherans Physical home as well. You Choose to be as you say “cousins”, choosing to be outside looking in, Wishing this, wishing that, wishing the Catholic Church to conform to your wants, your beliefs, before I come back Home, But this won’t ever happen.

When a son runs away from home, because he does not want to believe that his father has the final authority in his home, how dare he ask his Father to conform to his wants/wishes before his coming back home.

The Holy Spirit that governs the Catholic Church does not conform to mans wants and wishes, God does not work that way.

Re: Infallibility, Jesus Left His Church to govern us, reprimand us, and by the Sacrament of the Confessional forgive us. This Church must have infallibility in it’s teachings to do so, or do you think Jesus Christ established a weak Church. Now the Pope can not command any Catholic to jump of a building now that is Wrong and not of God. But The Pope is infallible when it comes only through the teachings of the Catholic Church

Evangelicatholic, Tell me, if you are a Christian don’t you want to be in a church that has infallibility? I sure DO, and am, through the Grace of God, and so should you any any Christian. Amen!

Ufam Tobie
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👍
 
mlz said:
EvangelCatholic;10874180:
Ufam, my brother/ sister. I have close ties with Roman Catholics among family [daughter in laws] and friends. Whenever there is a Baptism, 1st Communion, weddings/ burials we worship as a family and take holy communion together no matter if it is a Lutheran or Catholic parish. Some view Lutherans as “professing catholics” in the Roman

What??! You have the Eucharist in a Catholic Mass??? You aren’t suppose to, nor are Catholics suppose to have communion at non Catholic parishes… I don’t understand this.

mlz
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It’s a slap in the face to Commune “just because you want to” in a Church that practices closed Communion. You can also Commune yourself to harm.
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Steveabrous said:
I concede. Luther did not physically remove them from the bible. But did he consider them fully scripture? I don’t think so. I believe he called them Apocrapha and gave them a seperate place at the back of the O.T.

To me this is the same as removing them, since in effect your saying they are not scripture.

Or am I wrong.
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You’re not wrong that he doubted their authenticity as inspired. However, his views are not seen as dogmatic nor did he believe they were. The Lutheran Confessions do not dispute their canonicity. In fact, the Apology of the Augsburg Confession refers to both Tobit and 2 Maccabees as Scripture. The standard Lutheran view had always been that they were inspired, but due to their historically disputed status were seen as of lesser authority. They were always read in the liturgy and even formed the basis of many Lutheran hymns.
 
Peter_J said:
I’ll second EvangelCatholic’s “👍”. Quite frankly, one of the things that bothers me about us Catholics is how gung-ho we can be about wanting non-Catholics, even Orthodox, to convert to Catholicism. (Although, to be fair, when I participate on an Orthodox forum, I’m bothered by how much they want everyone to convert to Orthodoxy.)
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I know what you mean, Peter. Although I think it’s great when Catholics become Lutheran (and anyone else for that matter), in general we are not interested in conversion to anything other than Christ and Him crucified for sinners. It means little to me that a Catholic is Catholic, rather than Lutheran, as long as he believes that and is baptized.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Originally Posted by Peter J
Quite frankly, one of the things that bothers me about us Catholics is how gung-ho we can be about wanting non-Catholics, even Orthodox, to convert to Catholicism. (Although, to be fair, when I participate on an Orthodox forum, I’m bothered by how much they want everyone to convert to Orthodoxy.)
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I think one of the fundamental difference between Catholics/Orthodox and a great many protestants is that you guys tend to see each Christian as a “free agent”. Accordingly, I would have no more responsibility to remain Catholic than you would to become Catholic (well, I mean if you take it to its logical extreme).
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Packerland said:
I know what you mean, Peter. Although I think it’s great when Catholics become Lutheran (and anyone else for that matter), in general we are not interested in conversion to anything other than Christ and Him crucified for sinners. It means little to me that a Catholic is Catholic, rather than Lutheran, as long as he believes that and is baptized.
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🙂
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Oh! Vatican 2 brought the Catholic Church much closer to the Lutheran Church. In-fact, much of the liturgy, moving the altar away from the wall Lutherans learned from John23. Some of you LCMS people puzzle me!
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Yes, it is true that Lutherans did not move their altars away from the wall until the Novus Ordo took hold in the Roman Church which is a bit humorous as Father Luther recommended this at the time of the Reformation.
 
benjohnson said:
I pray for my Catholic friends that if there is a Vatican III, that it has nothing to do with the “spirit of Vatican II.” Vatican II was fine, but it that seemed to me that many used it as a excuse to promulgate their own interpretations.
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Well, Ben, it looks like you all have more work to do as those who are moved by the “spirit of Vatican II” have not yet been altogether silenced.

See: www.religionnews.com/2013/06/14/buoyed-by-a-new-pope-priests-gather-to-urge-church-reform/
 
Packerland said:
I know what you mean, Peter. Although I think it’s great when Catholics become Lutheran (and anyone else for that matter), in general we are not interested in conversion to anything other than Christ and Him crucified for sinners. It means little to me that a Catholic is Catholic, rather than Lutheran, as long as he believes that and is baptized.
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👍
 
Jotto said:
Well, Ben, it looks like you all have more work to do as those who are moved by the “spirit of Vatican II” have not yet been altogether silenced.

See: www.religionnews.com/2013/06/14/buoyed-by-a-new-pope-priests-gather-to-urge-church-reform/
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Interesting article. It reminds me of the question in the garden, “Did God really say…” when it refers to
“These are open questions in the life of the church
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The LCMS will surely see plenty of those questions at the Synod convention in July, too. Women’s ordination is a perpetual favorite. Why can’t some questions simply be closed to further discussion?
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Originally Posted by Peter J
Thing is, there actually is no “Roman Church”. What you’re talking about here is the Roman Communion.
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Well, perhaps I should have been more circumspect…

In almost all cases where someone speaks of a “Roman Church”, that actually mean one of three things:
  1. the Roman Rite
  2. the Latin Church (which contains the Roman Rite, and also several lesser-known rites, e.g. the Ambrosian Rite)
  3. the entire Roman Communion (i.e. all the churches in full communion with Rome)
none of which can correctly be called the “Roman Church”.

To further complicate things, many people shorten “Roman-Rite Catholic” to “Roman Catholic”.
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Stilldreamn said:
The LCMS will surely see plenty of those questions at the Synod convention in July, too. Women’s ordination is a perpetual favorite. Why can’t some questions simply be closed to further discussion?
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Ugh. No kidding!

Some of the proposed resolutions for this year are frustrating - not because we’re making them, but because we have to “re-affirm” sound doctrine in the first place! 🤷

Roman Catholic friends, you are not alone in the “good fight!”
 
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