Lutheran's claim the real presence but do you believe it?

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Lutherans claim the real presence but do you believe it? And does it matter?

If not why?

If yes. Why?
 
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I do not believe it because they have long since lost the capacity to perform transubstantiation.

The reason they lost the ability is because they lost the understanding of what the Eucharist truly it. It is not con-substantial, both bread and body, wine and blood, as the Lutherans believe. It is Transubstantial, only body and blood.

As for if it matter, yes, it does. Millions of Lutherans are mislead, and they give worship to mere bread and wine every week.
 
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It was my understanding that the Roman Catholic Church’s objection to Lutherans having the Real Presence is based less on the slight difference in the teaching, but rather in the fact that Lutherans have not maintained valid Apostolic Succession, at least according to Roman Catholic standards.
 
Yes, OP. I believe the Real Presence of Christ occurs in Lutheran celebrations of Holy Communion. Why? Because I’m Lutheran. 😁

Roman Catholics should believe what their communion teaches, however.
 
That’s one reason, but not the only reason. Both are essential necessities, and both have been lost by the Lutheran assembly.
 
Don’t limit what God can do. It is entirely possible that the merciful Lord, seeing the sincere belief of a congregation without apostolic succession, might choose to bless them with his presence anyway.
 
masuwerte1 said:
Don’t limit what God can do. It is entirely possible that the merciful Lord, seeing the sincere belief of a congregation without apostolic succession, might choose to bless them with his presence anyway.
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Absolutely, well said! Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit are not limited to only the Catholic Church, and can bless other Churches and ecclesial communities with elements of sanctification and truth. However, when it comes to Our Lord’s Presence in the Eucharist, Our Lord instituted His Eternal Priesthood and the Sacrament of Holy Orders for validly consecrating bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Our Lord. The Eternal High Priest acts through His validly ordained priests and no others when it comes to the Eucharist.
 
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Aside from the issue of Apostolic succession… Can a Lutheran (who by definition does not believe that wine can change into the actual blood of Christ) cause the transubstantiation of wine into blood on accident? If so, then yes, the real presence could be there. I tend to think that would not happen.
 
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Okay this is just a question from my side? I am not Lutheran and wish not to argue either point in this thread but…

Your post kinda implies that transubstantiation is somewhat based on faith? Some priests and Catholics do not believe this, would that mean that specific consecration is “invalid”?

Regards
 
I am new to this and still studying in R.C.I.A., but I have never heard of a Catholic priest who does not believe in transubstantiation.

I found this in the Catechism on the Vatican website:

CCC 1327:
"In brief, the Eucharist is the sum and summary of our faith: “Our way of thinking is attuned to the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn confirms our way of thinking.”

CCC 1376:
"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: “Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.”

In my opinion, it is pretty clear that all Catholics are supposed to believe in transubstantiation. I will have to do more reading to see if a priest’s lack of faith would prevent it.
 
Hi Wolfie

A priest’s lack in believing it will not change the validity according to Catholicism. I am pretty sure of this but with your research you are welcome to correct me. 🙂

I am not being mean but a simple google search of disgraced priests would confirm that some (if not many depending on the amount of many) do not believe this. Same argument that a Paedophile priest very heavy in mortal sin and does not plan to correct or confess can still absolve you in confession. Basically it has nothing to do with the priest’s thoughts or actions.

For any other reader, I am not attacking disgraced priests for “some” reason. Just that it is not an argument of faith.
 
dann said:
Lutherans claim the real presence but do you believe it? And does it matter?

If not why?

If yes. Why?
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I did read that Lutherans do not hold the same belief as Catholics, that the real presence of Christ continues after the celebration of the Eucharist. And there is a Lutheran practice of keeping sacramental elements to commune the sick and home-bound, yet leftovers may be fed to birds. Therefore, for a Lutheran, there would never be Eucharistic Worship outside of Mass. This at least indicates a different belief in the persistence of real presence.
 
From Declaration on the Way: Church, Ministry and Eucharist, Bishops’ Committee for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops:
Lutherans and Catholics agree that in the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper, Jesus Christ himself is present: He is present truly, substantially, as a person, and he is present in his entirety, as Son of God and a human being.
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So there seems to be considerable common ground.
 
Yaaa that is the reason… Apostolic succession.
The belief that ties a religion to its roots. Of authority.
As the roman guy said. Iam a man under authority. and I say to this guy go and he goes etc etc . just say the word…
 
Yes this is the faith and the belief that is taught in the Lutheran church. The real presence is what they held to. With a slight vary ation.
 
dann said:
Lutherans claim the real presence but do you believe it? And does it matter?

If not why?

If yes. Why?
Click to expand...
It tells us the Real Presence was believed at least at the time of Luther. The Protestant off-shoots who do not, where do they get it from?
 
Luther said this about real presence:

"“Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.”
(Works of Luther)

It matters because this is what Christ taught and is reflected in the Bible. This IS my body etc.
 
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My understanding is that Lutherans do not believe in transubstantiation but believe that the Real Presence of Jesus co-exists with the bread and wine.
However, even though that belief is wrong it is a moot point because Lutherans lack Apostolic succession and so their Eucharist is essentially symbolic because the Real Presence of Jesus is not in their Eucharist at all.
 
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