Lutherans Declare Catholic Priesthood is Valid

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SyroMalankara said:
Rome seems to be developing it’s teaching on the matter. It no longer sees a magical set of words to confect the Sacraments, but sees the Institutional Narrative, along with the Epiclesis as part of the entirety of the whole Sacrament in action - mainly due to reacquaintance with the East. I can’t see Rome upholding any celebration by ex-Fr. Cutie or ex-Fr. Beaugouis as having any “validity” in Rome’s eyes, other than their priesthood could be seen as “intact” should they seek to come back to full Communion with the Church, upon which they would be treated as laymen for a time - or even a lifetime, and should an unlikely rehabilitation occur, there would be no need to a(n) "re"ordination.
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What Rome may come to, I couldn’t say. What I know is what they teach now is as I said. Valid orders, not licit ones, in the sort of case you are suggesting. And no, illicit sacramental actions are not upheld. The faithful are not to participate in such.

GKC
 
GKC said:
Not arguing that, though whether that suggests their sacramental intent in a sacramental action (facere quod facit ecclesia) is invalid, I doubt. Absent any convincing evidence to the contrary, I hold to Ott, as to Rome’s teaching.

GKC
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In the Catholic Church a priest must be in communion with his bishop in order to publicly say the Mass. However, he can privately say the Mass, something father Corapi claimed to be doing long ago; have not heard much about him recently.
 
joe371 said:
In the Catholic Church a priest must be in communion with his bishop in order to publicly say the Mass. However, he can privately say the Mass, something father Corapi claimed to be doing long ago; have not heard much about him recently.
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Again, the distinction about being in communion with his bishop is the licit/illicit distinction, for Rome. Which doesn’t affect the validity of the orders of a cleric not in communion, assuming they are validly ordained ab initio, And such orders can come from a schismatic/heretical /excommunicated bishop, assuming he was validly consecrated. It’s why Rome recognizes the orders of the PNCC as valid/illicit. Again, Ott.

GKC
 
GKC said:
Again, the distinction about being in communion with his bishop is the licit/illicit distinction, for Rome. Which doesn’t affect the validity of the orders of a cleric not in communion, assuming they are validly ordained ab initio, And such orders can come from a schismatic/heretical /excommunicated bishop, assuming he was validly consecrated. It’s why Rome recognizes the orders of the PNCC as valid/illicit. Again, Ott.

GKC
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Agreed; it does not affect the validity of the orders of a cleric not in communion, assuming they are validly ordained, which is why they can privately say the Mass, even if they are suspended. 👍

"The fact is that Father John’s own religious community has placed him on administrative leave and his capacity to function publicly as a priest has been suspended during the investigation of the charges against him. This was officially communicated to all of the bishops of the country in a statement saying that, “…Fr. Corapi has been placed on administrative leave and has had all of his priestly faculties removed.”

patrickmadrid.com/ewtn-releases-new-statement-about-dropping-fr-corapis-programs/
 
pablope said:
Is it a matter of feeling…or a matter of authority? Who can authoritatively say Lutherans orders are valid? Did Lutherans just make a declaration themselves their orders are valid?
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The question seems to be: do Lutheran Pastors possess apostolic pedigree? Martin Luther left the Catholic Church, so I am not sure how he could still possess apostolic pedigree…
 
joe371 said:
Agreed; it does not affect the validity of the orders of a cleric not in communion, assuming they are validly ordained, which is why they can privately say the Mass, even if they are suspended. 👍

"The fact is that Father John’s own religious community has placed him on administrative leave and his capacity to function publicly as a priest has been suspended during the investigation of the charges against him. This was officially communicated to all of the bishops of the country in a statement saying that, “…Fr. Corapi has been placed on administrative leave and has had all of his priestly faculties removed.”

patrickmadrid.com/ewtn-releases-new-statement-about-dropping-fr-corapis-programs/
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Yes. That means, in Rome’s eyes, that he no longer may licitly (within the RCC, under authority) celebrate the Eucharist (for example). If he did, the sacrament would be valid, but illicit.

GKC
 
joe371 said:
The question seems to be: do Lutheran Pastors possess apostolic pedigree? Martin Luther left the Catholic Church, so I am not sure how he could still possess apostolic pedigree…
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Leaving the Catholic Church does not of itself cause loss of apostolic lineage. Otherwise, the Catholic Church would not teach that the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and a few others have apostolic lineage, and therefore, valid orders.
 
Predictably, some posters totally ignore the ecumenical statements by the Catholic Church about ministry in the Lutheran Church. There are no documents or teachings in the Roman Church about the validity of Lutheran Orders, which I find quite interesting since Martin Luther was the first significant Reformer of the Church. Reading the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue one is impressed by the effort to explain Lutherans as merely a historical division that is essentially resolved today. There are several post Vatican 2 statements that speck quite favorably of the Lutheran priesthood.

What I meant to convey with this thread is the boldness from Lutherans to inform lay people that the Mass in the Roman Catholic Church is valid, as is the priesthood. It is giving the faithful the green light to become Roman Catholics.
 
JonNC said:
You rarely will find an adoration chapel, not that said is doctrinally forbidden. Lutherans tend to practice Eucharistc adoration within the sacramental act. However, when I know that, at our parish, reliquae has been reserved, I always bow when in the sanctuary.

That said, this in no way has anything to do with a recognition of orders. When I enter a Catholic church, I will bow there, too.

Jon
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Don posted this photo of his parish’s chapel where they identify adoration
Wednesday: 9:30 am Matins - Chapel
11:45 am Holy Eucharist - Chapel
7:00 pm Vespers - Chapel
7:20 pm Reserve Sacrament - Chapel
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EvangelCatholic said:
Don posted this photo of his parish’s chapel where they identify adoration
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That was probably was me and not Don - it’s a parish here in Seattle where I often go to Vespers.
You can see the aumbry to the right in the photo.

During Lent, there’s an Adoration of the Corpus Christi.
 
Porknpie said:
What whole thing is a joke Celtic? Are you saying that the Catholic priesthood is not valid? Or are you straying off topic?
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I am saying the whole thing is a joke of the Lutherans giving the Catholics the nod about the
Catholic priesthood is valid, they should be looking at the invalid priesthood of themselves, if they want to be united there is nothing to stop them accept the teachings of the Catholic Church and come back, Martin Luther was a heretic, I am sure we could pin up on the Lutheran Church 97 Articles of Faith that they do not comply with themselves
 
Celtic_Maiden said:
I am saying the whole thing is a joke of the Lutherans giving the Catholics the nod about the
Catholic priesthood is valid, they should be looking at the invalid priesthood of themselves, if they want to be united there is nothing to stop them accept the teachings of the Catholic Church and come back, Martin Luther was a heretic, I am sure we could pin up on the Lutheran Church 97 Articles of Faith that they do not comply with themselves
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You are strongly encouraged to do just that. Perhaps you can start with the Holy See website if that is a reliable source for you. vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html
 
benjohnson said:
That was probably was me and not Don - it’s a parish here in Seattle where I often go to Vespers.
You can see the aumbry to the right in the photo.

During Lent, there’s an Adoration of the Corpus Christi.
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Sorry Ben; thanks for the clarity.
 
OH MY! Is this satire? The guys with not Apostolic Succession or valid Holy Orders say it is O.K. to go to a Catholic priest.

Good one guys, good one.
 
Discerning13 said:
OH MY! Is this satire? The guys with not Apostolic Succession or valid Holy Orders say it is O.K. to go to a Catholic priest.

Good one guys, good one.
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Just for your information:

According to the Catholic Church, Lutherans do have apostolic succession and the Catholic Church has never stated that Lutherans do not have valid Holy Orders.
 
RyanBlack said:
Leaving the Catholic Church does not of itself cause loss of apostolic lineage. Otherwise, the Catholic Church would not teach that the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and a few others have apostolic lineage, and therefore, valid orders.
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👍
 
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