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SteveVH
Guest
Sorry, that was worded horribly. One does not have to be ordained in order to be chosen as Pope. But yes, of course, once chosen he would then have to be ordained deacon, priest and bishop.
- Status
Please do not lump all of us “protestants” together. I have been lurking for quite a while now and just had to jump in. I grew up LCMS Lutheran. Currently, I call myself non-denominational and have been studying the bible on my own with the help of all you people and numerous other internet sites. I still identify with Protestantism, however I would say the above is completely false. Myself and others that I know hold to the spirit of the gospel message and would call honest and true believers to be headed for salvation. These believers may not attend church at all (myself) or the catholic church, orthodox church etc…
As far as the stumbling blocks for me… Mary, oral contraception, confession etc… I don’t know any protestant churches that REQUIRE the belief in these doctrines for salvation. The catholic church still affirms that it is necessary for salvation to believe what the church teaches on these practices. In that case I know MANY catholics who are in trouble because of practices in the church that they don’t agree with.
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Lutherans definitely believe in Confession/ Holy Absolution.
Jon
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Peter_J
Guest
Hmmm … well I’m not easily shocked, but I’m surprised that no Lutheran poster wanted to comment on the word “the” in front of “anti-Christ”. (Or maybe not enough time has passed yet?)
po18guy
Well-known member
It bruised some huge egos and lead to what I view as an uncharitable assessment of the Orthodox. Fr. Charles Connor, on an EWTN program I watched just this evening, maintained that what was needed in the 16th century was a moral revolution - but we got a theological revolution instead. In truth, the later behavior of the primary reformers reveals that they had feet of clay just as the corrupt members of the Catholic Church did.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Oral confession to a priest or pastor of the Church?
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MaryT777
Guest
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benjohnson
Guest
At the time, the pope claimed secular power and required communion with him to receive God’s grace - in the fervor of the time I could see why such language was used.
We have to understand that the Pope had Excommunicated these people as marked them for damnation as per two Papal Bulls.
God gave these people the Gospel, and the Bishop of Rome gave them damnation - frankly, I would have acted less unwisely then them.
…
I decided to crack open out Giant Book of Rules and noted with satisfaction that this anti-christ language doesn’t appear in the Augsburg Confession itself *. In rereading, the Augsburg, I’m actually stuck at how level-headed it is - even by modern standards.
- Please correct me if I’m wrong, I very well could be as I skimmed it.
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benjohnson
Guest
Yes. I’ve done it three times now for really persistent sins.
Face to face was difficult!
I happen to really like confessionals, but apparently they are a modern practice and the debate is still open if we’re going to bring them back.
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
Private confession in the Lutheran church is probably practiced as much as it is among Roman Catholics; not very often.
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Peter_J
Guest
Hey don’t make me come over there!
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Erich
Guest
Now let’s take a look at why Lutherans consider the institution of the papacy to be anti-Christ. The Reformers gave three reasons why the term applied to the Papacy (below). At least one of these (#2), does not apply in our day, since the Pope is no longer a kingmaker (one less issue keeping us from restored unity!):
*]The Roman Pontiff claims for himself [in the first place] that by divine right he is [supreme] above all bishops and pastors [in all Christendom].
*]Secondly, he adds also that by divine right he has both swords, i.e., the authority also of bestowing kingdoms [enthroning and deposing kings, regulating secular dominions etc.].
*]And thirdly, he says that to believe this is necessary for salvation. And for these reasons the Roman bishop calls himself [and boasts that he is] the vicar of Christ on earth.
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I can’t find it at the moment, but on the old Catholic Answers site there was this:
The Antichrist is mentioned by name in only four verses of Scripture: 1 John 2:18, 22, 4:3, and 2 John 7. There are other verses that many people link to the Antichrist, but since he isn’t named in them, the connection is not certain. The four Johanine verses must serve as the core of our knowledge before trying to link other verses to them.
In 1 John 2:18–19, we read, “Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.”
This passage appears to speak of a major individual Antichrist, as well as many minor individual Antichrists, who apparently are apostate Christians for “they went out from us.” The appearance of the individual Antichrist is yet future (“Antichrist is coming”), but the presence of the many Antichrists is a signal that “it is the last hour.”
In 1 John 2:22–23, we read, “Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.”
This is consistent with the apostate nature of the many Antichrists, for they have “deny[ied] that Jesus is the Christ” and, in denying the Son, they have implicitly denied the Father. Presumably the same would be true of the individual Antichrist.
1 John 4:1–6 gives practical tests for discerning which spirits bearing revelation are from God and which are not. In John 4:3, we read that “every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of Antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already.”
This shows that the Antichrist movement is inspired by spirits bearing false revelation and that refuse to confess Jesus. This movement had begun in John’s day but would grow afterward.
Finally, in 2 John 7, we read, “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.”
Nothing there about the pope (any pope!) or the papacy.
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Peter_J
Guest
Alright, but what I was getting at is, from what I’ve heard Lutherans (early as well as modern) don’t call the pope “the anti-Christ”.
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SteveVH
Guest
Before every Mass, every weekend and at any other time one wishes just by calling the priest? We are advised to go to confession at least once a month. You are correct, however, there are relatively few who go on a regular basis. Its a shame. What an incredible sacrament. Communion without confession is like kissing your beloved after not brushing your teeth for two weeks.
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SteveVH
Guest
Excommunication is not damnation. Luther could have repented at any time and come back to the Church. That was his decision and he persisted in it.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Does it help to compare our faults? Does it justify to know that others are or can be as bad as I am? Or should I be focusing on getting better regardless of what others are doing, and focus on what Christ wants to do in my life?
I just can’t believe how many posters make these snipping comments about how others do what they are doing as well.
Jimmy: Mommy!!! Billy is sticking his tongue at me!
Billy: Well you did it to me first, yesterday.
Jimmy: Well you did it to me first last week.
Billy: Well you did it to me first last month.
Jimmy: Well you were born before me, so you started it all.
Sigh…
Regardless of how well or regularly Catholics participate in Private Confession, Lutherans do not do it often enough, at least not American Lutherans.
Jon
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Brother, the point is that none of us do. But that doesn’t mean that I should point out that others don’t do it as often either.Regardless of how well or regularly Catholics participate in Private Confession, Lutherans do not do it often enough, at least not American Lutherans.
Jon
And that was the point of my post.
If we as Lutherans do not use the sacraments often enough, it isn’t because Catholics don’t, and it isn’t your fault, either. It is our fault, and our loss.
Jon
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
10-4And that was the point of my post.
If we as Lutherans do not use the sacraments often enough, it isn’t because Catholics don’t, and it isn’t your fault, either. It is our fault, and our loss.
Jon
Through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault
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Peter_J
Guest
In response to posts 152 through 156 (I trust I don’t need to quote them all ): Before you two go any further, may I suggest that Mary was simply trying to understand Lutheranism better?
): Before you two go any further, may I suggest that Mary was simply trying to understand Lutheranism better?- Status